Prop 8: White Bias and Blaming the Black Community?

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    Nov 11, 2008 5:46 PM GMT
    Jasmyne Cannick wrote: “I am black. I am a political activist who cares deeply about social justice issues. I am a lesbian. This year, I canvassed the streets of South Los Angeles and Compton, knocking on doors, talking politics to passers-by and working as I never had before to ensure a large voter turnout among African Americans. But even I wasn't inspired to encourage black people to vote against the proposition.”

    This woman is working in South LA and Compton. Think Maslow folks. It’s unreasonable to expect a population that’s worrying about food, shelter, safety, employment and healthcare to care about gay marriage.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:46 PM GMT
    Ducky44 saidActive,
    It all in how we present our argument. We can’t use the word marriage and focus on the issue of civil rights, this is not rocket science.
    It's common sense stuff. That's how you re-craft the argument.
    But you cannot say that you know how it feels to be discriminated against.
    Because as Gay White Men, You will never know what it means to be African American is this country. If you go in with that attitude you will lose half of the congregation, trust me on this.
    It's just a fact. Resentment has nothing to do with it.
    Will we be met with resistance ABSOLUTELY does that mean we give up NEVER!
    Is going to happen over night no. When you fall you get back up and dust yourself off and you keep at it.


    Seriously the African American community needs to get over yourself if this is how you feel. Gays are the only segment of society that are still discriminated against by the Government. Miscegenation laws were struck down in the 60's. The trial court in Loving V. Virginia actually quoted the bible in upholding Miscegenation laws and yet now African Americans want to hide behind the church as the reason they are acting like bigots.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:49 PM GMT
    It is completely wrong to blame anyone but the people who picked up the pen, wrote and submitted the proposition and then went balls to the wall to ensure it's passage. It is also wrong to blame gay people for not putting up the right kind of fight. Who the fuck has ever had a right taken from them that they previously had? I'm not that versed in rights struggles, but it seems, from what I do know, that the non-existence of rights has changed to the existence of rights, not the other way around, at least when it comes to civil rights.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:51 PM GMT
    from the OP's cited Cannick article:

    "Does someone who is homeless or suffering from HIV but has no healthcare, or newly out of prison and unemployed, really benefit from the right to marry someone of the same sex?"

    In reference to one item there, yes. If that unemployed person has an employed same-sex partner with insurance, marriage would make it possible, usually, to become insured as a spouse. Additionally, if that person with HIV is in the hospital (or in prison or otherwise in legal distress), having a legal spouse to help with decisions could be life-saving.

    I'm someone who believes that all civil rights issues are the same, and all are different. Institutional and societal racial discrimination is our national cross, and we have a long way to go. The modern gay rights movement only began in 1969, and we've come a long way fairly quickly - still with a long way to go. But it's both revolutionary and evolutionary, with great emphasis, I think, on the latter.

    I have to say I see Ms. Cannick's point - black Americans have other things on their minds, and that would include many black gay Americans.
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    Nov 11, 2008 5:54 PM GMT
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif


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    Nov 11, 2008 5:57 PM GMT
    cowboyo said

    I have to say I see Ms. Cannick's point - black Americans have other things on their minds, and that would include many black gay Americans.


    But, I don't see why the fact that African Americans have important issues with respect to their own role in American society, and the discrimination they correctly point out, is a justification for going into a voting booth, and directly, consciously, voting to eliminate a "right" of another group. That's a terrible sentence, but you get my point, hopefully.

    How much effort does it take to vote No on such a mean spirited proposition, rooted in such disingenuous logic? None at all!

    When I read Cannick's rant, she makes it sound like making that one second decision to vote No was tantamount to the voter taking to the streets and canvasing neighborhoods about Prop 8.

    Cannick was lobbed a softball, and she swung and missed three times. I think what she said was a bit outrageous.
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:00 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif
  • dfrourke

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    Nov 11, 2008 6:20 PM GMT
    Somehow this thread has eroded to feel like "my discrimination is worse than yours"...

    BULLSHIT, people...and really futile if you ask me. Fine win this argument if you want. Discrimination in any form overt, covert, legislated or institutionalized is wrong. Does a little discrimination feel any better than a lot of discrimination? Does a little discrimination allow you more happiness than a lot of discrimination does?

    I don't disagree with what the woman in the article is stating. She has priorities for the Black community that were important to her at this time. Just like segments of the gay community have priorities. Not everyone in the gay community gives a shit about HIV/AIDS [other than not being infected by it]. Some of us are dedicated fundraisers and educators about specific causes that are near and dear to our hearts. Not everyone jumps on the band wagon.

    Why are we asking Black gay men/women to spread the message of marriage equality to the Black community? Why aren't we ALL doing it? Volunteer outside your primary community group and get a sense of what's going on out in the real world. Take a friend home for Thanksgiving and invite them into your family's house. These are the ways we are going to win over hearts and minds across all communities.

    - David icon_wink.gif
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    Nov 11, 2008 6:21 PM GMT
    One of the great lessons of Harvey Milk is that when minority groups work together they are the majority.

    I don't think it falls on any one organization or group to engage the other, that has to come from within the group itself. The African-American community, the Latino community-- they need their own gay leaders and they need to galvanize people to prioritize this issue.

    That said, if we in the gay community went out and phone banked, canvassed, pooled advertising money-- and worked to prove our commitment to civil rights issues, immigration issues, education issues, minority issues of all kinds-- and not just the marriage vote, it might really make a difference. Because trust is earned.

    And the right to marry is HUGELY IMPORTANT.

    Because first and foremost, it allows you to visualize a future for yourself, a sustainable and loving gay life, a family, a way forward.

    And when you can think about the future, when you KNOW you are allowed to build a future for yourself in any way you choose, you value who you are and you make better decisions not just for yourself but for those around you-- your community.

    Whether we consciously feel it or not, like it or not, the right to marry affects every fiber of our being and self-worth and we need to work together on this one. Sooner than later.


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    Nov 11, 2008 6:58 PM GMT
    Just thought I'd share some of my own thoughts keeping some of the replies here in mind.

    Her first point re: not feeling compelled or inspired to encourage discussing marriage equality with her community:

    I don't see why the right to marry should be a priority for me or other black people. Gay marriage? Please.

    Let's see if we can put ourselves in her shoes a bit:

    As gay white men, can we substitute "issues of class" or "gentrification" or "images of gay asian men" or "salary equity for women" for "the right to marry"?

    For example:
    "I don't see why gentrification should be a priority for me or other gay white men. Gentrification? Please."

    White privilege prevents us from even knowing what white privilege is. We don't even have to think about it as it is not rubbed in our face everyday as to how privileged we are. As white men, we still float through the world with taxi cabs stopping for us, with health care providers attending to us, with landlords and real estate agents asking us to sign rental/purchase agreements, with banks giving us loans, with schools accepting us, with knowing we'll see ourselves on tv and in movies and advertisements every day without question (and positively portrayed), as sexual beings w/o significance of exoticism or hyper/hypo masculinity, etc. We are unaware of the lived experience of folks who do not have the same access to such privilege. In fact, we are expected to be land owners, doctors, fathers, educated and "intelligent," Presidents and Senators, rational, and law-abiding... We don't think about these expectations, or question them. Yet they are certainly thought about and questioned re: men of color. We are also expected to be married with children...

    As gay white men, we have a profound experience of being considered "other" and "less than." Masculinity is at stake; with masculinity comes power, acceptance, fitting in, validation. And here we are at a site that celebrates "jocks," and not just jocks, but "real" jocks. We fight to hold on to symbols that empower us, that have us feeling ok about ourselves; we do not want to lose that which is held in question about our equal nature with other men. So we gather here to validate each other about our being ok and masculine; shit, we even do it for dancers and synchronized swimmers here, don't we? (just checking.) Sports is a great symbol, in my opinion, of how we want to belong to a bigger band of men - and we organize here to get that sense of inclusion. So too, perhaps, is religion and church for otherwise disenfranchised folks who seek validation, power, inclusion, and community.

    Marriage is the latest symbol of how gay people are considered less than, and told to "get in line" by being popularly denied access as reminder of how we are to be disempowered, and to uphold the "privilege" of straight people. We want the same symbols of power and privilege that are granted to others, just like the symbols of masculinity and power I mentioned above. We want all the same privileges afforded straight, white, men - of course we want to be considered equal and will demand access with our otherwise privileged voices. And we want validation that others see us as equal too. We want others' support. It is the issue at the moment that symbolizes that we will have "parity" with heterosexuals. And we spent appx $40 million to try to get it in the last few months. That is a lot of money, and most likely came from white men and women.

    But, when do we rally that amount of resources and energy for issues that deal with "class" within the gay community? "race" within the gay community? "feminism" within the gay community? Or for that matter, these issues at large? As white gay men, marriage is perhaps one of the few remaining symbols that separates us from having the same privileges afforded straight white men. And we have the energy, resources, and determination to nail such a singular issue. But how many symbols of inequality still remain for individuals of color? Marriage was one of them, until the Supreme Court ruling in 1967. That was resolved; but other huge symbols still remain.

    So, why is gay marriage even important to communities of color? And why would the bond that is provided by religion for those communities be overlooked when at the polling booth? And, why would we white gay men expect there to be automatic support for gay marriage from disenfranchised communities with whom we remain disengaged? Why are we so disappointed by the demographics of the vote for Prop 8? Why do we tend to start scapegoating and blaming a community w/o taking much responsibility for our own neglect and shortsightedness?

    White privilege, perhaps.

    Maybe white privilege is like religion in the black community - it blinds us to the equal treatment of those who aren't like us.
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    Nov 11, 2008 7:05 PM GMT
    homonculus said

    But, when do we rally that amount of resources and energy for issues that deal with "class" within the gay community? "race" within the gay community? "feminism" within the gay community? Or for that matter, these issues at large? As white gay men, marriage is perhaps one of the few remaining symbols that separates us from having the same privileges afforded straight white men. And we have the energy, resources, and determination to nail such a singular issue. But how many symbols of inequality still remain for individuals of color? Marriage was one of them, until the Supreme Court ruling in 1967. That was resolved; but other huge symbols still remain.


    Really?

    How about Service in the Military? How about title 7 protection? Really marriage is one of the few?
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    Nov 11, 2008 7:25 PM GMT
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif


    You know, they do have an option for "other" if you prefer not to be labeled as latino. I'm just sayin...
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    Nov 11, 2008 7:30 PM GMT
    Chungo,

    you are looking for a fight young man you won't get one here. I was asked a question and I answered it.

    What do you mean when you say that African Ameican Community needs to get over it self?

    It seems pretty clear that the gist of what point I was making you seem to be stuck on angry and quite frankly young man....please!

    I am often reminded of a quote by James Baldwin in times like these, and it certainly applies here.

    "WHAT MUST MY BLINDED EYES HAVE SEEN TO WISH TO SEE NO MORE"!

    I am just as sadden as anyone that this stupid prop has pass, I'm I surprised no, do I plan to do something about yes. I already am. I have already been on the phone with my old church from my childhood and whenI'm back in Los Angeles I plan to speak to them.

    Chungo,

    What do you plan on doing other than tossing blame and insults!!!!!!
    No struggle is ever won over night young man.
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    Nov 11, 2008 7:33 PM GMT
    meninlove said

    Repeat of previous post:

    All right then, are there any black gays here who would be willing to speak out to black straights about this stuff?


    I'm willing to speak as well. I voted NO on 8, but I also was torn. I found it difficult to be active for a group that actively despises me, devalues me, and blames me for their own problems.

    As for marriage, it isn’t the same as the civil rights issues that have long been the focus of African American efforts, and I think many (white) gay-rights activists fail to recognize the nuances. It’s important to remember that the right to marry whom one wanted — racially at least, per Loving vs. Virginia, the case often cited by gay marriage advocates — was never a significant concern of the Civil Rights Movement. That right was fought for in the courts, not the streets, and by predominantly-white organizations such as the ACLU. It’s not clear whether there was ever popular support for interracial marriage within the black community — most AfAms still marry other AfAms, after all, and even now there’s a ton of ambivalence in the community about whether interracial marriage is a good thing. So back then, civil rights leaders understandably chose to focus their energies on more clear and present dangers such as the right to vote, the right to a decent education and livelihood, and the right to not be killed with impunity for stepping above one’s station.

    So I have to wonder why the No on 8 people chose to present this as a parallel of the African-American Civil Rights Movement. To my mind, this helped trivialize their desire to marry, particularly among older blacks who remember when being able to marry white people was the least of their worries.

    Why isn't anyone focusing on the gay vote? Less than 50% of queers actually voted in this past election, and of those 30% actually voted NO on 8.

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    Nov 11, 2008 7:53 PM GMT
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif


    But you're not white either. Still, it's your choice. There's the OTHER option, though....
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:10 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif


    And you're not white either. I wonder why you didn't choose the OTHER option....


    Maybe because other promotes a ton of questions that I choose not to become involved with. At the end of the day I pass, and I admit that, but that doesn't mean that my coming out was any easier than yours.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:13 PM GMT
    I'm confused. My understanding was that Hispanic referred to someone of descent from Iberia (Spain and Portugal) or Latin America, while Latino referred to someone of descent from Latin America. So if someone is Hispanic without being Latino, that means their ancestry is from Spain or Portugal. How does that mean that such a person is not white? White, broadly speaking, just means that someone's ancestry derives mostly from Europe, and the Iberian peninsula is clearly European...
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:13 PM GMT
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif


    And you're not white either. I wonder why you didn't choose the OTHER option....


    Maybe because other promotes a ton of questions that I choose not to become involved with. At the end of the day I pass, and I admit that, but that doesn't mean that my coming out was any easier than yours.


    Now the truth comes out. You opt to "pass" in 2008? I'm not surprised icon_smile.gif.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:14 PM GMT
    WOW!!!!!icon_eek.gif
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:16 PM GMT
    Ducky44 saidChungo,

    you are looking for a fight young man you won't get one here. I was asked a question and I answered it.

    What do you mean when you say that African Ameican Community needs to get over it self?

    It seems pretty clear that the gist of what point I was making you seem to be stuck on angry and quite frankly young man....please!

    I am often reminded of a quote by James Baldwin in times like these, and it certainly applies here.

    "WHAT MUST MY BLINDED EYES HAVE SEEN TO WISH TO SEE NO MORE"!

    I am just as sadden as anyone that this stupid prop has pass, I'm I surprised no, do I plan to do something about yes. I already am. I have already been on the phone with my old church from my childhood and whenI'm back in Los Angeles I plan to speak to them.

    Chungo,

    What do you plan on doing other than tossing blame and insults!!!!!!
    No struggle is ever won over night young man.


    Don't be condescending, it is not a pretty color on you. I do not blame the african american population for the passing of prop 8 if any one is to blame it is the Mormon church. hence why I will be attending a protest tomorrow, and filling out forms to challenge the mormon churches tax exempt status since they are acting like a PAC. I have an issue when the Black Community comes out and says you have no clue what it is like to be discriminated against, because that is a load of shit, and all you seem to be willing to spout. I would agree with Jake Benson, Gay is the new Black. and the african american community is contributing to that fact. I have a problem with a self loathing bigot telling us we are doing it all wrong but not offering any advice.

    You are right. No struggle is won over night, and this one in california was not won over night, but sadly it was won and then taken away and yes 70% of the black vote going against the right to marry for all people was a part of that.

    You should watch this video it is quite interesting


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    Nov 11, 2008 8:18 PM GMT
    MSUBioNerd saidI'm confused. My understanding was that Hispanic referred to someone of descent from Iberia (Spain and Portugal) or Latin America, while Latino referred to someone of descent from Latin America. So if someone is Hispanic without being Latino, that means their ancestry is from Spain or Portugal. How does that mean that such a person is not white? White, broadly speaking, just means that someone's ancestry derives mostly from Europe, and the Iberian peninsula is clearly European...


    You are very right in your use of terminology there, and I am glad someone does know the differences between the terms. the sad fact is though that the Iberian Peninsula is wildly more conservative, or at least always was more conservative than the rest of white europe.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:24 PM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said

    3) You are right coming out isn't easy for anyone and how dare you claim that it was easy for me. Better yet how dare you assume that I am white. I personally classify myself as Hispanic. And coming from a conservative hispanic family it was far from easy to come out of the closet, try walking a day in my shoes and then get back to me. I may look white and you may perceive it as easier for me to come out, but any ease in my coming out was granted to me by the fact that others who looked like me grew some balls and came out.


    Your indignation is petty and unnecessary.

    I said that white gay guys in general find it easier to come out. The "you" that followed was a reference to white gay guys as a group to which you belong (according to your profile).

    Let me get this--you're WHITE in your profile and HISPANIC in this thread? icon_rolleyes.gif




    No I list white in my profile because Hispanic is not an option and I try not to put Latino on Profiles, because I am not Latino.icon_evil.gif


    And you're not white either. I wonder why you didn't choose the OTHER option....


    Maybe because other promotes a ton of questions that I choose not to become involved with. At the end of the day I pass, and I admit that, but that doesn't mean that my coming out was any easier than yours.


    Now the truth comes out. You opt to "pass" in 2008? I'm not surprised icon_smile.gif.


    If that is your biggest concern, sure I opt to pass. And the end of the day it is really doesn't matter. At the end of the day the point is the same, any ease granted to me in coming out to society was granted to me by people looking like me growing some balls and coming out of the closet and not being on the"DL". And hopefully my growing some balls and coming out to my conservative hispanic family will grant someone else that ease in theirs.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:25 PM GMT
    Here's an article by another black lesbian on Prop 8. Read it! It's different.


    The court will overturn Prop. 8
    LaDoris H. Cordell
    Tuesday, November 11, 200
    8

    Shameful is the only word to describe the vote on Proposition 8, which amended California's Constitution to ban same-sex marriage. In the blink of an eye, marriage for same-sex couples has gone from legal to illegal, leaving 18,000 same-sex couples in marriage limbo. What just happened? We now know that 52 percent of the electorate supported the ban on same-sex marriage, and that men and women supported it in equal numbers. Because of our small numbers - African Americans accounted for 9 percent of the yes on Prop. 8 vote, and 4 percent of the no on Prop. 8 vote - we did not determine the Prop. 8 outcome. The shocker was that a whopping 70 percent of African American voters and 53 percent of Latinos threw their support to the ban.

    As an African American lesbian who has devoted her life to advocating for the civil rights of all, and especially for the black community, I am angry, and I feel betrayed. Given African Americans' long and tortured history of fighting against discrimination and exclusion, it never occurred to me that black folks might vote to oppress others in exactly the same way. But that's just what they did. And with that vote, African Americans have now placed the issue of black homophobia, long an elephant in the room, front and center. Yet, for me, this blacklash is old news.

    I have been witness to sermons in which black ministers have preached about the ravages wrought by homosexuality. And I have sat with black congregants who prayed for the deliverance of homosexuals from their perverse affliction. For these black churchgoers, homosexuality is not a civil-rights issue; to the contrary, for them, homosexuality is all about behavior - sinful sexual behavior in which people like me choose to engage.

    Actually, I did not engage in this behavior for many years. Growing up, I attended public schools, where I excelled, earning straight A's and lots of awards. I went to college, then to law school, opened a law practice in a black community, became a law school administrator, and then went on to a successful career on the bench. Along the way, I got married and had two wonderful daughters. I was perfect. And then one fine day, as these black voters would have it, I chose to simply throw it all away - to become an Untouchable? Ridiculous. I did not choose to be gay anymore than I chose to be black.

    In the arena of civil rights, the black church has always been a beacon of enlightenment. On Nov. 4, 2008, some black churches became bastions of benightedness. I am convinced that no amount of talking, explaining or pleading - and no amount of money - will ever persuade those African Americans, and others similarly minded who opposed same-sex marriage on religious grounds, to change their views. Reason in the face of religious bigotry is impotent. Although some may disagree, I believe that the No on Prop. 8 campaign could not have done anything more to reach those voters.

    That said, I am entirely convinced that same-sex marriage will again be legalized in California, the 52 percent vote notwithstanding. Just as the courts overrode the will of the majority in ordering desegregation of public schools and public accommodations, and just as the courts ignored the demands of the electorate by opening voting to people of color and the right to marry to mixed-race couples, so, too, will the courts, in defiance of the majority, however slim, reopen the doors of marriage to the gay community. The Sturm und Drang with which society greeted these courageous and controversial court rulings was ultimately replaced by acceptance. I predict that same-sex marriage will follow the same path. After all, 18,000 couples already have wed and the world has not stopped turning. On May 15, 2008, the California Supreme Court boldly bestowed upon gay couples the right to marry. I have no doubt that these brave justices will do it again.

    Walter White, past executive secretary of the NAACP, a black man who was so light- skinned that he was always mistaken for white, famously wrote, "I am white and I am black, and know that there is no difference. Each casts a shadow, and all shadows are black." I am black and I am gay, and I know the same.


    LaDoris H. Cordell, a retired Superior Court judge, is a special counselor for campus relations to the president of Stanford University.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:27 PM GMT
    For anyone who wants to bother with the facts about why Prop 8 passed -


    http://www.sacbee.com/walters/story/1387029.html
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Nov 11, 2008 8:33 PM GMT
    I'm just GOD SMACKED! Me condescending never...that is just not in my nature young man.(sarcasm)icon_rolleyes.gif

    Please tell me that you are not calling me a "A self loathing bigot". If so you are wayyyyyy of the mark.icon_rolleyes.gif

    I think you need to think very carefully before you toss that statement around.icon_rolleyes.gif


    I