Prop 8: White Bias and Blaming the Black Community?

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    Nov 12, 2008 12:00 AM GMT
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 said
    BlkMuscleGent said
    chungo44 saidI have said before and will say again that I don't think it was blacks that made prop. 8 pass. on a quick read her numbers misinterpreted looked like it did. my issue is with black people saying oh my god gays are ridiculous they don't know what oppression is like. I hate to tell you but guess what you can't be fired for being black but I can be fired for being gay.

    I also have an issue with this woman saying your doing it all wrong but then not giving any advice.


    If you think no one can be fired for being black, you're wrong. While it is illegal for an employer to discriminate against an employee on the basis of race, sexual orientation, or both, there are still plausible ways to circumvent this restriction. In California, for example, people are employed at will. This means, essentially, that most CA employers can fire employees as they please. Many employers exercise this right with prudence because of potential discrimination charges, among other things, but let's get real--how easy is it for a sacked employee to win an employment discrimination case?


    That is where you are wrong It is not illegal for and employer to discriminate based on sexual orientation in this country. Title 7 does not apply to sexual orientation. so while you can bring a case for employment discrimination based on race you cannot in the vast majority of this country do that based on sexual orientation. I live in NY where luckily the Human Rights law does cover sexual orientation but nationally that is not the case, and even then I am still not afforded the same rights that a black person is because they can sue under the HRL and title 7. While it may not be easy to win a discrimination case, at least for you it is possible.


    So, it's illegal for an employer to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation in certain parts of the country--such as New York and California.


    yes in SOME not ALL. where as it is illegal in all places to discriminate based on race. additionally if you are discriminated against base don race your recourse is greater no matter where you are
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    Nov 12, 2008 3:31 AM GMT
    Blackstar said meninlove said
    All right then, are there any black gays here who would be willing to speak out to black straights about this stuff?

    BlkMuscleGent said,

    " I am willing. In fact, I already have. "

    Me too. As a matter of fact....I did my own campaigning for No on 8.
    I tried to talk to every ( str8 ) brotha I ran into on the street for about a week. Despite what some might think...most of them were AGAINST Prop 8.
    I would like to take a moment and give a heartfelt thanks to all you who did some kind of work actively like this no matter what community you did it in. I was overworked and stressed so just gave money. You are all heroes for your efforts icon_biggrin.gif
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    Nov 12, 2008 3:58 AM GMT
    "McGay-

    London, if, as you say, it's a matter of prioritization, then how would voting no on prop 8 have affected any of her or anyone else's priorities as members of another minority? The defeat of prop 8 would not have added to anyone's oppression. It wasn't a matter of priority, it was a matter of opinion, most of which, in this case, are based on bigotry. For fuck's sake, chickens got more civil rights in California this year than gay people did. I hope the chickens don't ever want to marry.

    I agree. Why prioritize? Why not vote in favor of gay people when the opportunity comes up? It is not like there is some limit on what you can vote for. " I only have one vote to use and I am saving it for another opportunity that better benefits the Black community." It is a false dichotomy. In this election, help gay people if you can. If in the next election, there is a way to help Black people, do that then. It is not either, or.

    I do not hold the black community responsible for the passage of Prop 8. But, from reading all of the many posts, many people do or at least they are disillusioned right or wrong. The gay community, in general, has always supported the black community when it comes to voting. Will they be so inclined in the future? I certainly hope so, but I am not so certain. That would be sad, but I think it is reality.
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    Nov 15, 2008 11:14 PM GMT
    chungo44 said


    Now on to the issue of black gays facing other issues and white middle - upper class gay wildly blowing money all over the place. AIDS heres and wild Idea CONDOMS. AIDS education in this country is huge and you have to be stupid to not know that condoms prevent HIV. maybe if black gays would stop being on the DL and admit to themselves and the black community what they really are this would not be such an issue, but instead they tend to hide. Maybe the reason the Gay movement has a largely white face is because we were willing to take risks and stop hiding.


    Chungo

    You really disgrace yourself here.

    1. What do we call a white man who hides his queer sexuality? Discreet. In the closet. What do we call a black man who hides his queer sexuality? On the Down Low. Its complete bullshit.

    2. AIDS/HIV: Facing the same economic/social ills of both the black community and the gay community, many gay black men are left on the street to prostitute themselves to survive or simply picked up a very nihilist state of mind. Maybe you can empathize a little.

    3. The white gay community has benefited from a secularization of white society, something not many *improvished groups enjoy. Black gays coming out can only go so far in combatting homophobia in the black community. What is needed is wealth and greater self-esteem and purpose.

    *Edited from wealthy to improvished.
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    Nov 15, 2008 11:19 PM GMT
    chungo44 said
    Ducky44 saidActive,
    It all in how we present our argument. We can’t use the word marriage and focus on the issue of civil rights, this is not rocket science.
    It's common sense stuff. That's how you re-craft the argument.
    But you cannot say that you know how it feels to be discriminated against.
    Because as Gay White Men, You will never know what it means to be African American is this country. If you go in with that attitude you will lose half of the congregation, trust me on this.
    It's just a fact. Resentment has nothing to do with it.
    Will we be met with resistance ABSOLUTELY does that mean we give up NEVER!
    Is going to happen over night no. When you fall you get back up and dust yourself off and you keep at it.


    Seriously the African American community needs to get over yourself if this is how you feel. Gays are the only segment of society that are still discriminated against by the Government. Miscegenation laws were struck down in the 60's. The trial court in Loving V. Virginia actually quoted the bible in upholding Miscegenation laws and yet now African Americans want to hide behind the church as the reason they are acting like bigots.


    Wait. So you believe the symptoms of 400 years of physical and mental abuse suddenly disappears as soon as all the laws promoting the abuse is lifted?

    So you don't believe the hatred, the self-hatred, the humiliation can't pass down from one generation to another?

    And who taught black people to believe in the bible?

    Think.
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    Nov 15, 2008 11:27 PM GMT
    Triggerman said

    I agree. Why prioritize? Why not vote in favor of gay people when the opportunity comes up? It is not like there is some limit on what you can vote for. " I only have one vote to use and I am saving it for another opportunity that better benefits the Black community." It is a false dichotomy. In this election, help gay people if you can. If in the next election, there is a way to help Black people, do that then. It is not either, or.

    I do not hold the black community responsible for the passage of Prop 8. But, from reading all of the many posts, many people do or at least they are disillusioned right or wrong. The gay community, in general, has always supported the black community when it comes to voting. Will they be so inclined in the future? I certainly hope so, but I am not so certain. That would be sad, but I think it is reality.


    I can't think of any major way the gay community impacted black rights but if there is to be a great split between the non-black gay community and the black gay and straight community...if you ask me, its been coming for a pretty long time.
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    Nov 15, 2008 11:39 PM GMT
    If you are capable enough of voting YES on Prop 8, then you are an idiot, whether or not you are black and white. And don't blame white people if you are black. If you voted YES and you are black, then YOU are the failure, not white people.
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    Nov 16, 2008 12:17 AM GMT
    jakebenson saidIf you are capable enough of voting YES on Prop 8, then you are an idiot, whether or not you are black and white. And don't blame white people if you are black. If you voted YES and you are black, then YOU are the failure, not white people.


    Then we're in agreement. If you're black, you have little to no allegiance to gay rights or to support gay rigts as any white straight person (the majority of Prop 8 voters) does?
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    Nov 16, 2008 12:41 AM GMT
    chungo44 said

    Now on to the issue of black gays facing other issues and white middle - upper class gay wildly blowing money all over the place. AIDS heres and wild Idea CONDOMS. AIDS education in this country is huge and you have to be stupid to not know that condoms prevent HIV?


    Everyone knows how to use condoms now just as gay people knew the best thing to do was use condoms back in the 70s (condoms and stds have existed for a long time)...so I can expect you to demand the government as well as private companies that fund HIV/AIDS prevention programs to cut their funds. Or you just want to cut HIV/AIDS programs for blacks?
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    Nov 16, 2008 1:18 AM GMT


    We're wondering, seeing how the Canadian experience is so totally different, can someone explain what white gays are doing that is racist? Are they driving the blacks out of bars or forbidding them entrance? Separate dance floors? What?!?!?

    Also, the lesbian author said that no white gay can tell her how or what to say to the black community about gay marriage. So she's put up an enormous stone wall saying white gays have no business in her community of blacks.

    So now what?
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    Nov 16, 2008 1:31 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    We're wondering, seeing how the Canadian experience is so totally different, can someone explain what white gays are doing that is racist? Are they driving the blacks out of bars or forbidding them entrance? Separate dance floors? What?!?!?

    Also, the lesbian author said that no white gay can tell her how or what to say to the black community about gay marriage. So she's put up an enormous stone wall saying white gays have no business in her community of blacks.

    So now what?


    Hey meninlove

    It's true. Outside the U.S. and Australia, racial relations between white gays and gays of color is so radically different although I've heard some complaints from England blacks that interracial relationships between black/white gays is thought to be more acceptable than black/black relationships. Other than those little complaints, it boggles the mind how different attitudes are outside the borders. Its just more color-blind I guess.

    I'd like you to first read this honest and real article of black straight males and homophobia.

    http://members.tripod.com/reconciliation/ofari.htm

    Then this wikipedia article is worth browsing through.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_LGBT_community


    As for Cannick, overall, I disagree with her although she makes some good points and forces people to think but don't believe she speaks for all gay black people. She just speaks for an angry, bitter (for good and bad reasons) segment of the community. Cannick wants to build a stronger more unified community, but I believe she's torn between that and cynicism.

    http://www.blackcommentator.com/140/140_black_gay_pride.html

    And although you can blow her off as a cynic. You know what they say, "a cynic is just a realist". Not that I'm saying thats the case. I'm just saying cynical people have a perspective that shouldn't be taken for granted.
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    Nov 16, 2008 1:51 AM GMT


    Thanks CitizenSol,

    It was like reading about another planet. We do protest a bit the 1st link as African American men have had a couple of generations to realize white America is full of white gays.

    The second link was an eye-opener. We think it should be remembered when talking about racism that it's not nearly, nearly prevalent among gays as among straights. In all our delving about the internet, we can only find a few examples of gay whereas there are truckloads of straight examples.

    We distinctly remember a black gay man in queer as folk, reflecting their scarcity in the Gay community there, as many are not out.

    Our personal opinions are that gays saying blacks ruined gay marriage rights, and blacks saying gays are racists are two examples of exaggeration. A better example would be the black men on this site.

    Are any of you experiencing racist crap here?
    To the white guys here: do you hate black guys?
    And for the white gays here, are any black men here saying gays should not marry?

    We've read 'would you' topics here where black guys ask if white guys are into blacks, and white guys ask if black guys are into whites. Both topics' answers are big Yes-es.

    Understandably , we're scratching our heads in confusion, as this is a huge pan-demographic online community.
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    Nov 16, 2008 1:53 AM GMT


    Sorry, had to log out in order to see that we can search through over 146,000 profiles! That there's a lot of men!

    So where's the racism here? With a number that big, there should be lots.


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    Nov 16, 2008 2:26 AM GMT
    Hey Men

    I'd also like to point out that there's many black gay men who are out including myself. Although there isn't as many openly gay black men in comparison to open gay white men, that doesn't mean that there isn't an abundance of gay black homosexuals trying to change things in their community. I find it insulting when people say otherwise.

    When people claim this as fact they reveal their ignorance (pointing at a particular member on this thread icon_smile.gif ) I'm sure that population-wise, there's even more white gay men in the closet than black gay men...not to say there isn't more work to do in the black community regarding homophobia but I'm trying to bring across the point that despite the white community being more gay friendly...you'd think there wouldn't be any white gays in the closet and in the last five years of being openly gay, I've encountered far more closeted gay white men than any other. I'm just trying to throw that myth out the window.
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    Nov 16, 2008 3:10 AM GMT


    Thanks CitizenSol,

    Apologies for the absence, but we were up-stairs coordinating a sirloin roast stew. Bill was chopping and I was doing the mad scientist thing with the bubbling pot. Little dogs everywhere! Every vegetable known to Man.

    Good points, though we'd hazard a guess that the numbers of closeted gays are proportional, making more closeted whites as like you say, there are more white gays. But, there's also the cultural factor pointed out in the first link you provided us. We once pointed out the reception white gays could get going into the black communities and promoting themselves and black gays and acceptance of gay marriage. This lesbian author wants none of that, proving our point. She also, rather saucily, said,

    " There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic)." Her last sentence flies in the face of the first link, which described events in a movie theatre.

    We think RJ is a very receptive community in lots of ways. Every race is welcome here, and many sought after.
    It's a microcosm of the larger world, but luckily without the racially bigoted aspects of that larger world.

    We're both so sorry about what happens in visceral (as opposed to online existence) regarding all the above in the US today.





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    Nov 16, 2008 3:46 AM GMT
    That article was absurd. If it made logical sense, I'd be offended.

    I honestly believe that despite the strides blacks have made socially that there's still no such thing as true equality. I feel the exact same way about gays. I don't think this will change overnight, nor will it change once the laws are realigned overnight. And I can't for the life of me imagine the author's line of thinking when as a lesbian, black or white or whatever, she wasn't insensed by Proposition 8, as if under any circumstance it's ok to revoke civil liberties. Furthermore, I'd love to know where she came up with her white gay vs back gay ratio. Gay people have been around forever, in every country, and in every civilization. The "10% club" minus black gays isn't the 9% club, if you'll excuse me referencing high school gay organizations.

    Some people will pull the race card no matter what. I think she discredits herself as an author by doing so. Being such a "political advocate," she should understand the importance of equal rights across the board.

    On a little bit of a side note... A black man approached my ex (white) at a bar once and gave him 3 reasons why they should go home together, the last of which was, "I don't date black men." Same ex dated an older asian man who absolutely refused to date other asian men. Sounds like self-hatred issues to me. If you are of a group that you find so vile that you won't date them, or by not dating within said group you're somehow better, why on earth would I want to date you?

    I think everyone, gay, straight, black, white, asian, or whatever needs to do a lot of soul searching. Until that happens there will be inequalities. Meanwhile, we need to work with what we've got....which is proving that just because people disagree with us doesn't mean they have the right to deny our rights as humans.
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    Nov 16, 2008 5:27 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    " There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic)." Her last sentence flies in the face of the first link, which described events in a movie theatre.



    Hey meninlove

    First I'll repeat that I disagree with the majority of her article. I believe gay marriage would benefit the black LGBT community immensely...not like it would the white LGBT community but it'll benefit. If she honestly believe it wouldn't, she's wrong. Still, Cannick, who has been fighting for gay black rights both in the LGBT community and the black community for years, has a special place in my heart because she puts people on the defensive and forces people to think. She's the Larry Kramer of the Black gay community. Sure she's wrong on a lot of things and she offends just about everybody except her pet constituency but she sometimes has a point. Controversy gets it out. So I have to continue welcoming her to the table despite my own desire of wanting to take a shot at smacking her mouth sometimes. icon_razz.gif

    The nuggests of truth in her article should be the main concern. Although marriage is important to black LGBT people, it isn't a THE priority for black LGBT people. Cannick is reacting to the demands that black gays engage black heterosexuals on the issue of marriage. Her answer? "Go fuck yourself." I concur.

    Black LGBT people are not only weighed down by the pressure of being black, but the pressures of being gay also. And that double whammy can create a shit storm that the other communities doesn't experience. While we're just trying to survive, (being black and gay multiplies your chances of being infected with HIV, homeless, or a victim of hate crimes and other ills that mainly hurts black and LGBT people) middle-class non-black gays are demanding our community put the fight for survival on hold and focus on something that isn't the most pressing matter in our lives. She isn't saying passing prop 8 was right. She has written articles against prop 8, against black homophobia. She's engaged black heterosexuals about their homophobia.

    Sure she needs 10 pounds of lube to get her head through the door, but lets not dismiss everything she has to say.



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    Nov 16, 2008 6:31 AM GMT


    Homeless: 42% black and 39% white

    http://www.nationalhomeless.org/publications/facts/who.html

    HIV 35 % black and 50% white

    http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm

    Hate crimes : 50 % were race based and of that 50%, 67% were against blacks.

    http://law.jrank.org/pages/12135/Race-Ethnicity-Hate-Crimes.html

    But CitizenSol, we can't find any info anywhere that any white gays are suggesting blacks put their fight for survival on hold. We can fight daily for our rights and still check 'no' on a ballot. To say that anyone should only fight for their own rights and not reach out to another in the smallest way is, well, strange to us.

    We'll give an example. We were the victims of a hate crime right here in liberal Canada. We lost our house - had to sell way below market. I lost 2 jobs due to the ensuing stalking.

    Meanwhile, up the street, an old man was being home invaded over and over. We didn't know him at all. He was white, Christian and his religion damned gays and claimed gays were evidence of this being the 'end of days'.

    Yet, in our misery, we went to see him. We ended up on camera over and over again on the news. I wrote an article about it and it was published center page in The Vancouver Sun editorial page this April.

    Here's the link:

    http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/editorial/story.html?id=143f569a-6b23-4607-957c-c1412f2f7150&p=1

    ...he never knew we were gay. The police however, did. The media did, too.
    Both tried to help us in our own place of misery.

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    Nov 16, 2008 6:48 AM GMT
    Well for one when most black people who voted for obama. Where mostly thinking to get that man in Office more than other things. I feel like He will change things for all not just about race but for Gays and everything eles too.
    I didn't get to vote No on Prop 8 sadly cuz i'm currently living in Texas 4 the mean time till i get To Cali. But Belive me as a gay black man i would have voted no on prop eight. And so far as other Gay blacks im sure they did and would have done the same. This isn't anything about race. Its about same Sex having the right to Love, Marry & be accepted by the world. I never once looked at this as a race issue, but instead about freedom for all.. And belive me black folks know. and MOSTLY ARE NOT GOING TO DENY SOMEONE ELES FREEDOM. If Prop 8 didn't pass, then that would mean blacks and all races of same sex could still be allowed to marry in Cali. And Us Gay black folks know that would also help break racial barriers.So why would Gay Blacks miss that chance to change things. They wouldn't thats what.

    But things need to change. Most White Gays only date White Gays. White Gays need to to keep an open mind about being with Gay Blacks. Don't knock it untill you try'd it. Wouldn't you Tell a Srt8 person that. Ha it just might be the best thing in your life. All races need to keep an Open Mind.

    So stop blaming folks. Cuz its not the Blacks or Whites or any other race flaut for the prop passing. But it will change belive that. They can't hold us down foever. It is destiny, and one day we all will be allowed to marry.

    " But it needs to Soon cuz I want to Wed this One Sexy Ass White Man" icon_biggrin.gif
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:06 AM GMT


    Here, please read this.

    http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/press/DiffrentStrokes.html

    If there are more whites than blacks in the gay community, then you'll naturally see more white couples than interracial couples or black couples. That's just arithmetic.

    The article link above speaks about prejudice too. It's a good one!


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    Nov 16, 2008 7:16 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    But CitizenSol, we can't find any info anywhere that any white gays are suggesting blacks put their fight for survival on hold. We can fight daily for our rights and still check 'no' on a ballot. To say that anyone should only fight for their own rights and not reach out to another in the smallest way is, well, strange to us.



    Keep in mind that its very likely many black lgbt people who voted in California voted no on prop 8.

    There isn't any explicit/conscious calls for black lgbt people to put those battles on hold because the gay community is largely willfull ignorant of those struggles. But when the gay community largely ignores calls for more exposure of black identity/issues and something like Prop 8 happens, suddenly black lgbt people exist. Suddenly we matter. We now exist to convince the bigoted members of our race to help (mostly) white middleclass gays advance their most important agenda. And I don't think its right meninlove. Period. I think its malevolent.

    I'm not saying that some black lgbt people haven't been galvanizing for gay marriage but for many black lgbt people, it hasn't been our most pressing matter just as black lgbt issues haven't been on the minds of many non-black lgbt people.
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:26 AM GMT
    meninlove said

    Here, please read this.

    http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/press/DiffrentStrokes.html

    If there are more whites than blacks in the gay community, then you'll naturally see more white couples than interracial couples or black couples. That's just arithmetic.

    The article link above speaks about prejudice too. It's a good one!




    Actually meninlove, there's a darkside to this. Many black and asian gay men have complained that there's an abundant amount of black and asian gay men who'll ONLY date white men. Its created a lot of strife. Whenever I reject a black man's advance in bars/clubs, he usually asks if I'm only into white men. I used to find this offensive until I got out more and found out there are ton of gay people of color who'd only interracial date. Now I reply that that isn't the case but I understand why'd they ask.
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:28 AM GMT


    We both understand you, CitizenSol. So, did you read Doug's article?

    We helped a man who certainly didn't understand or even know of our struggle. Had he known, likely he wouldn't have helped. But others saw what we did for that guy.
    It made a difference.

    We can't find any material anywhere that indicated LGBT whites didn't care or were willfully ignorant of black issues. Where's all the data?

    We're referring to your statement,
    "There isn't any explicit/conscious calls for black lgbt people to put those battles on hold because the gay community is largely willfull ignorant of those struggles. But when the gay community largely ignores calls for more exposure of black identity/issues and something like Prop 8 happens, suddenly black lgbt people exist. Suddenly we matter."

    ...and again (apologies) why would black people have to put their own struggles on hold in order to support gay marriage? That would be terrible and nobody has ever asked that. It's just an X on a ballot.

    Didn't blacks and whites years ago fight for straight interracial marriage? So, now it's time for both to fight for GAY interracial marriage. Scorpio 0440 is evidence of that.

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    Nov 16, 2008 7:36 AM GMT

    You'll find tons of white guys here that want an Asian guy and tons that want a Black guy. And the other way around, too, Blacks and Asians and Latinos that want a white guy.

    What's wrong with that?

    And there are plenty of us here of mixed race, just like the new President.
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    Nov 16, 2008 7:48 AM GMT


    Hey sexysamer!

    we said plenty (meaning many) of us that are of mixed race. Not all. heh