Would you ever bottom bareback for a person who is HIV+ and 'undetectable'

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    Oct 21, 2014 8:10 AM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle said
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said
    MuchMoreThanMuscle saidWhy does this topic perpetuate in the forums?

    Everyone, turn off your computers now. Your lives are waiting for you.


    It's because people tell half truths that will lead to serious health issues and some people just want to stand by and let that happen, I won't be doing that so here I am speaking up


    Oh, that's classic coming from the likes of you with your obvious HIV agenda and how you'very distorted information in the past.


    Oh really so what is my agenda buddy?? Do tell all knowing one and also show me where I have distorted information??
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    Oct 21, 2014 10:04 AM GMT
    I'm still waiting for your evidence of an agenda buddy there still isn't anything in what you have posted so far. That forum is factual which is more than I can say of what you and Timm55 and his merry band of followers seem to believe In
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    Oct 21, 2014 5:22 PM GMT
    I have questions:

    So can we all agree that this scientific study is "state of the art," which means that it's cutting edge and preliminary? If the science winds up holding up, as the initial results indicate, that's great, but we're scientifically treading in unknown space.

    Can we also all agree that this question is open to interpretation? You can frame it as "would you bareback with an HIV+ guy who is your long term boyfriend/partner/husband" or as "would you bareback with an HIV+ random hookup?"

    If this is the case, then are we talking past each other? I think it's a much more reasonable proposition to say you might bareback for an HIV+ guy who is your b/f/partner, who has a vested interest in not harming you, and who you can to a greater or lesser extent you can "know" he is regularly taking his meds, and you see the doctor's notes with the undetectable viral load, etc. In short, there's a bit of trust there, vested interests, and a modicum of truth.

    If we're talking about a trick from Grindr all bets are off. There should, from a normative sense, be almost no trust placed in what the person says about his status (pox or neg), his viral load (if poz), and his general health and tendencies for honesty or lies.

    Also, isn't our fixation with HIV here ignoring the practical reality of other serious STD/STIs such as herpes, HPV/warts, drug resistant gonorreah (spell check?), and other viral infections?

    It seems like one debate is purely scientific, where we're dealing with state of the art information that is preliminary, and then another debate is purely practical, where we're dealing with the fact that this scientific information is preliminary is where we have to form behavior, from a public policy or normative sense, with respect to OTHER STD/STIs. If that's the case, it's obvious why people are disagreeing so much. Is this thread scientific or practical, and are we all on the same page?
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    Oct 22, 2014 3:11 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    You don't know the difference between AIDS and HIV (and lied about it).

    Please present the evidence to prove that.
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    Oct 22, 2014 3:11 AM GMT
    MuchMoreThanMuscle said
    Scruffypup saidMany years ago I had a couple of dates with this incredibly hot guy. But I never fully trusted him because he would act sketchy at times. One night I was lying on his bed when he asked me if I wanted some Tang. I hadn't heard of anyone drinking Tang since I was a kid and thought it odd. But I said "sure" and he mixed me up some in the kitchen and brought it to me on the bed. I started feeling extremely relaxed and giddy for no apparent reason. He then told me he was HIV+ and told me how he fucked this guy at the bath house the night before. I asked him if he used a condom and he said no and that he shot his load inside him. When I asked if he told the guy he was positive, he said "no, he was asleep the whole time." When I protested about how wrong that was he told me "anyone who falls asleep in a bath house deserves it."

    My heart began racing after he told me all this and when he went to the kitchen to make me more "Tang" I got up and tried to run out the door, but that's when I realized I had been heavily drugged because I fell repeatedly once I got outside the door. I made it almost a full block away and was inside a gay bar trying to tell people I had been drugged (he lived on Bourbon Street.) But I couldn't form words very well and no one understood what I was trying to say. He then ran in the door and dragged me back to his house. I couldn't fight back and whatever he gave me made everything seem like a dream and oddly okay.

    He put me in bed and undressed me. He crawled on top of me and started lubing up his dick and tried to mount me. Something inside me managed to gain enough consciousness to reach around me for something to hit him with. There was a heavy curtain rod lying across the table and I picked it up while he was on top of me, but I didn't have the strength or coordination to hit him with it so I hit the window with it and lucky for me it broke. Within just a couple of minutes, someone yelled inside the broken window what happened and I yelled loud enough for them to hear me. The neighbor then started banging on the door and he had to let him in. I begged him to help me out of there and the neighbor didn't act surprised in the least. He said "Joe, let him go." He helped me outside and I woke up on this guy's floor the next morning.

    So while I'm sure a lot of guys are honest about their HIV status, there are some very sick people out there who are angry about having it and are actively searching for people to infect.


    There are not "some" sick people with HIV trying to spread the virus. The amount of people who engage in this behavior is miniscule compared to all people who have sex with basically strangers.

    Did you call the police to have this person arrested for attempted rape and for potentially infecting you with HIV?

    At the very least I hope you filed a complaint so as to bring this person to justice and to stop him in his tracks before he caused more harm to others. I certainly hope you didn't do nothing over the matter.

    To be honest your story doesn't add up. You first start by saying you didn't fully trust this man yet on a second date you're sprawled out on his bed accepting drinks he "mixed" for you in his kitchen while you weren't in his presence. Where did you meet this guy?

    To everyone else: This is the type of sensational drama that taints people's opinions of HIV+ gay men. No one here is sharing a story about two rational adults who chose to talk about HIV before engaging in consensual sex or who simply chose not to due to sero-discordance.

    The mentioning of one isolated incident that happened "many years ago" is now the catalyst to support a conclusion that there are "some sick people out there" who are HIV+ and are attempting to intentionally infect others through drugging and rape is a bit careless.

    Please don't think that HIV+ gay men are out there to cause you harm. And just remember at one point these men that some of you want to vilify were once HIV- too at some point in their lives. So those victims you so vehemently want to protect today will more than likely become the sexual deviants you harshly judge in due time. If you are one of these individuals who berates another in this manner you should consider how little good it truely does.




    Look. I hate you and you hate me. Everyone gets it. And my "story" doesn't have to "add up." It happened exactly as I said it did and you're only attacking my integrity because you're mad that I've called you out on so many things. And yes I reported it to the police and they told me there wasn't anything they could do because I wasn't there to witness it. I also walked over to that bath house in person and talked to the manager. He told me the guy was probably positive too and walked away. Couldn't care less and was aggravated I even bothered him. And if you didn't selectively read my posts, you'd know that I had a boyfriend who was positive for over a year, and this was after the crazy guy I mentioned above. No one is trying to paint all positive guys in a bad light, but there are certainly plenty of them out there who are more than willing to pass the bug onto someone else. Unfortunately, it's not one in a million like you would like to think.
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    Oct 22, 2014 6:00 AM GMT
    "To be honest your story doesn't add up. You first start by saying you didn't fully trust this man yet on a second date you're sprawled out on his bed accepting drinks he "mixed" for you in his kitchen while you weren't in his presence. Where did you meet this guy?

    To everyone else: This is the type of sensational drama that taints people's opinions of HIV+ gay men. No one here is sharing a story about two rational adults who chose to talk about HIV before engaging in consensual sex or who simply chose not to due to sero-discordance" by muscle head all brawn and no brain.

    The mentioning of one isolated incident that happened "many years ago" is now the catalyst to support a conclusion that there are "some sick people out there" who are HIV+ and are attempting to intentionally infect others through drugging and rape is a bit careless.

    Please don't think that HIV+ gay men are out there to cause you harm. And just remember at one point these men that some of you want to vilify were once HIV- too at some point in their lives. So those victims you so vehemently want to protect today will more than likely become the sexual deviants you harshly judge in due time. If you are one of these individuals who berates another in this manner you should consider how little good it truely does.

    [/quote]

    This is typical defence of un-defendable behaviour from Generation X veterans of whom I am ashamed to be demographically in as well. You Muscle ...... you are another dangerous minimiser who only cares about yourself and stuff everyone else.

    Are you Poz yourself and do you bareback? I think it's a relevant question seeing you are defending the right of others to do so
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    Oct 22, 2014 1:18 PM GMT
    The mentioning of one isolated incident that happened "many years ago" is now the catalyst to support a conclusion that there are "some sick people out there" who are HIV+ and are attempting to intentionally infect others through drugging and rape is a bit careless.

    Please don't think that HIV+ gay men are out there to cause you harm. And just remember at one point these men that some of you want to vilify were once HIV- too at some point in their lives. So those victims you so vehemently want to protect today will more than likely become the sexual deviants you harshly judge in due time. If you are one of these individuals who berates another in this manner you should consider how little good it truely does.



    This is typical defence of un-defendable behaviour from Generation X veterans of whom I am ashamed to be demographically in as well. You Muscle ...... you are another dangerous minimiser who only cares about yourself and stuff everyone else.

    Are you Poz yourself and do you bareback? I think it's a relevant question seeing you are defending the right of others to do so [/quote]

    Please shut up. It really is dumb to admittedly assert you don't trust someone to then elaborate a story about how you accepted a drink from someone you barely know after he "mixed" it without you being present. Maybe this is just country bumpkin naiveté on Scrufffslit's part but I learned years ago that you NEVER accept a drink from someone you don't know well and you NEVER leave your drink unattended for any length of time at a bar or party. Any police officer will tell you the same.

    Don't mistake my pointing out of someone's stupidity and contradictory rantings as justifying date rape. Scruffyslit has a tendency to share details about his personal life that doesn't appear to be consistent. His time line of personal events is one of the most "colorful" on this site and that is the point I am making. Stay on topic and muster a little restraint from your natural inclination for distortion and sensationalizing.[/quote]

    Please read your own rantings as his posts are far more relevant than yours have been. There is no sensationalising of what is actually happening in the world. From what I have red from your posts I am sceptical your not endorsing date rape. Your personal insults reflect your intellect and ignorance. I don't claim to know everything nor should I have a right to, however I am trained to intellectually question research which is based on questionable claims when they have the potential to have wide ranging effects on the community.

    Oddly enough It's not actually the researchers themselves that made the false and misleading claims. It's the BB agenda people such as some on this site and since your defending the, Muscle... Steroid guy your one of em
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    Oct 22, 2014 11:31 PM GMT
    I am so grateful that you pointed out your life and everything that is going wrong in it but you seem to want to project it on me. Your a stain on the window of history and the likes of you will always be ignored and forgotten as you and your stupidity should now and should always be
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    Oct 26, 2014 1:49 PM GMT
    Hey Musclemoran here's some interesting accurate information that will make you choke on you lies

    http://www.afao.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/4530/BP1110_iPrEx_PrEP_trial.pdf

    So there is no infections from people on Prep?? You must feel even stupider than before if that's possible
  • frogman89

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    Oct 27, 2014 10:57 AM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidHey Musclemoran here's some interesting accurate information that will make you choke on you lies

    http://www.afao.org.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/4530/BP1110_iPrEx_PrEP_trial.pdf

    So there is no infections from people on Prep?? You must feel even stupider than before if that's possible

    "No infection from people on PrEP" as a statement in itself is wrong. It was not the people on PrEP who infected other people, but the other way around. How about you read the study you post?

    Before I start now, a little explanation: An infection is acquired, if the transmitted infectious dose exceeds a certain level that is different for every agent.

    If you look at it from a scientific perspective it makes sense it doesn't properly work. Your blood levels of tenofovir and emtricitabin might be high enough to restrict the viral load. But it does not reduce the infectious dose that a positive guy who is not on medication may transmit. So even if you as a negative guy are on medication you still can get infected if the viral dose is high enough.

    Now look at it from the other point of view: If the viral load of a positive guy is reduced by cART (combined anti-retroviral therapy, it isn't called HAART anymore; at least 3 different active pharmaceutical components) under the threshold of 50 copies per mL blood, the transmitted viral dose is too small to infect a sexual partner. Also the the viral load in cum is smaller than that in blood and mucosa is a natural barrier for germs. That's why HIV+/undetectable are scientifically considered as nearly none-infectious. "nearly", because 0:40,000 isn't enough to say "completely".




    Oh and by the way, if AT ALL, it would be *Musclemoron. Who looks like an illiterate moron now?
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    Nov 04, 2014 12:31 AM GMT
    Ok Frogface you go and be the poster boy having unprotected sex with HIV poz guys and leave the rest of us to live our lives without HIV.

    You also still have not answered the question would you bareback as the receptive partner for a guy who is HIV poz and 'undetectable'.

    I would also like you to explain how you know he is 'undetectable' and if he is adherent to his medication treatment.

    Only an idiot would trust an FB so maybe you could enlighten us all with your example of how we should all trust the medication and go BB especially for a a HIV negative receptive anal sex partner.

    While I do have some concerns around the extremely high numbers for this medications efficacy 96%. The partner studies did exclude persons who, during the course of the trial become HIV poz,and persons who were not consistent with the treatment regime.

    If you seriously believe that hose exclusions are not significant then you need to stop pretending you have any idea of what is going on.

    These studies were set under the perfect conditions ie. adherence to medication and only those who didn't become HIV. The others left out where not for unreasonable as they were the un-contactable or they with any existing medication.

    Overall it seems I have to remind you and the other 3 band of BB lobbyist that I am not here to throw doubt on the science and I want HIV to end and for people to have access to medication, longer lives and to reduce discrimination against POZ guys.

    What I have been on about the whole time is the simple message. If this medication is promoted as 'a be all to end all' the consequences for the overall health could be catastrophic.

    I don't expect you to understand as your passion for HIV poz guys to have BB sex is the most important issue in your life and your passion drives you.

    If you want to know how this effects me?? It's like this, I am single, I meet guys and I have sex like any other gay man. I get a lot of hot guys interested but what troubles me is not only are a lot of them willing to BB , in the last 12 months they are insisting on it.

    This trend is growing so 'pull the wool from over your eyes' [sic] and see what is really happening.
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    Nov 04, 2014 1:42 AM GMT
    The problem with PrEP, and tops who claim they have a low viral count is this: how do you KNOW he's telling you the truth? And have you been taking Truvada consistently? Is it effective in YOU?

    And how does HE know the truth about himself, TODAY, when you're about to be his bottom? Because viral load fluctuates.

    A guy you just met can also tell you that's he's HIV negative. IS HE? Is that how you risk you health, on what a guy tells you?

    Now Truvada can be a good thing, if you're taking it consistently & appropriately. But the figures I see are around 92% protection. Well, that's not very impressive to me. And only 92% if you're doing it right.

    On the other hand, Truvada PLUS a condom gives you a lot more protection. Why not do that? And if a poz man doesn't want to wear a condom as a top, then he's a selfish & dangerous guy you wanna stay clear of, and possibly a criminal in some US jurisdictions.
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    Nov 04, 2014 2:07 AM GMT
    Art_Deco saidThe problem with PrEP, and tops who claim they have a low viral count is this: how do you KNOW he's telling you the truth? And have you been taking Truvada consistently? Is it effective in YOU?

    And how does HE know the truth about himself, TODAY, when you're about to be his bottom? Because viral load fluctuates.

    A guy you just met can also tell you that's he's HIV negative. IS HE? Is that how you risk you health, on what a guy tells you?

    Now Truvada can be a good thing, if you're taking it consistently & appropriately. But the figures I see are around 92% protection. Well, that's not very impressive to me. And only 92% if you're doing it right.

    On the other hand, Truvada PLUS a condom gives you a lot more protection. Why not do that? And if a poz man doesn't want to wear a condom as a top, then he's a selfish & dangerous guy you wanna stay clear of, and possibly a criminal in some US jurisdictions.


    That's "the truth whole truth and nothing but the truth" Art Deco. The BB lobby group members better steer clear of those jurisdictions which protect the rights of HIV negative sexual partners or the words in ".." Listed above are ones you will need to be reciting.
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    Nov 05, 2014 3:06 AM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said
    Art_Deco saidThe problem with PrEP, and tops who claim they have a low viral count is this: how do you KNOW he's telling you the truth? And have you been taking Truvada consistently? Is it effective in YOU?

    And how does HE know the truth about himself, TODAY, when you're about to be his bottom? Because viral load fluctuates.

    A guy you just met can also tell you that's he's HIV negative. IS HE? Is that how you risk you health, on what a guy tells you?

    Now Truvada can be a good thing, if you're taking it consistently & appropriately. But the figures I see are around 92% protection. Well, that's not very impressive to me. And only 92% if you're doing it right.

    On the other hand, Truvada PLUS a condom gives you a lot more protection. Why not do that? And if a poz man doesn't want to wear a condom as a top, then he's a selfish & dangerous guy you wanna stay clear of, and possibly a criminal in some US jurisdictions.


    That's "the truth whole truth and nothing but the truth" Art Deco. The BB lobby group members better steer clear of those jurisdictions which protect the rights of HIV negative sexual partners or the words in ".." Listed above are ones you will need to be reciting.


    I'm not surprised the two of you would agree. I've heard the same histrionic tactics from both of you.

    Australia's ACON statement now says Safe SEX is:
    "3. Men living with HIV who only have sex without condoms when they have a sustained undetectable viral load (UVL) and in the absence of sexually transmissible infections (STIs)."

    And regarding Australian law:
    "It remains unclear if the law in NSW recognises
    contemporary understandings of having and maintaining an UVL and accepts evidence that this significantly reduces the risk of transmission of
    HIV. This should be taken into consideration
    when police, prosecutors and courts are implementing
    and interpreting the law."

    You and Art Deco are BIG into the blame game!
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    Nov 05, 2014 5:34 AM GMT
    I have had many conversations about this with many of the staff of ACON and they would not be surprised but disappointed that the likes of you cannot let go of your pro bare back agenda. I'm not going to stop opposing you no matter what because you are dangerous and you are starting to sound more and more like a sociopath.

    Art Deco and I and many others openly oppose your agenda because we care about the issue. I have so many friends in real life I certainly don't care what you think of me. Please explain why you need to go into battle for people to believe that Prep is more effective on it's own and condoms are not essential in your view?? Or are you just so egotistical that because your views have been challenged you need to be seen to win the argument??
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    Nov 05, 2014 7:06 AM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidReceptive anal sex is the highest risk of transmission of HIV, given the confidence of the medical fraternity of their new drug treatments, (insert your own minimum time scale you would consider bare back for an HIV- guy). If you are HIV neg I especially am interested in your responses


    While no doubt with the political argument going on this won't be read....

    I seriously doubt I will do random sex ever again. 1. I'm not out in the scene meeting guys. 2. I tried casual sex twice before and both times was left emotionally dissatisfied. 3. I have already gone since 1999 without sex, at this point its no longer a concern to me.

    However I am kinda hoping there will be another relationship, and I'm pretty certain that with the right fellow my interest in sex will return. Unless its true when they say 'use it or lose it'... icon_razz.gif

    Having been in relationship were HIV was the third wheel, spending 12 years of our 14 year relationship with it always there, I'm doubtful I would rush into to another relationship with a guy who is HIV positive. There is too many other aspects of HIV that people seem not to care to talk about, such as the side effects of the therapies such as the tendency of the positive person to not want to infect their partner, thus sex goes south, such as worry and deep concern when the doctor says this cocktail isn't working.


    I won't say it that it wouldn't happen. Love and chemistry apparently ignore logic and reason.

    So IF I fall in love with a guy who is positive.

    I am at an age where the impact of contracting the virus isn't going to phase me as much. With common treatments giving the average patient at least 20 years of quality life, at my age 20 years puts me well into old age.

    Its not like I'm going out there and wanting to have sex with more guys. I seriously doubt that if #7 (if there is one) and I fail as a couple that I'm going to try again. So the risk of me spreading HIV is low to non-existent.

    I have sufficient reason to doubt I will live to 80. So looking for 30 years more of life is kind of unrealistic to me.

    IF he is that adamant about it, IF we definitely on the long haul until death to us part, IF he can live with the idea of my catching it.

    Then yes.


  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Nov 05, 2014 5:31 PM GMT
    Sidneydumb, do you actually READ what people write?

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidOk Frogface you go and be the poster boy having unprotected sex with HIV poz guys and leave the rest of us to live our lives without HIV.

    You also still have not answered the question would you bareback as the receptive partner for a guy who is HIV poz and 'undetectable'.
    I already did answer this and I said yes.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI would also like you to explain how you know he is 'undetectable' and if he is adherent to his medication treatment.

    Only an idiot would trust an FB so maybe you could enlighten us all with your example of how we should all trust the medication and go BB especially for a a HIV negative receptive anal sex partner.
    I did say it's none of your business. I trust him and I know him like I know myself. I haven't been disappointed.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidWhile I do have some concerns around the extremely high numbers for this medications efficacy 96%. The partner studies did exclude persons who, during the course of the trial become HIV poz,and persons who were not consistent with the treatment regime.
    Did we read the same study? Because excluding those who during the course of trial become HIV positive would be absolute nonsense. Who is left if you exclude those? Only healthy guys. It doesn't make sense at all to construct a study like that.
    Please give me your source for this bullshit.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidOverall it seems I have to remind you and the other 3 band of BB lobbyist that I am not here to throw doubt on the science and I want HIV to end and for people to have access to medication, longer lives and to reduce discrimination against POZ guys.
    There's no bb agenda, you dimwit. Just read what we wrote. I don't have the patience to explain it to you over and over again. It's about principles, not agendas.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidWhat I have been on about the whole time is the simple message. If this medication is promoted as 'a be all to end all' the consequences for the overall health could be catastrophic.

    That's not how it is promoted. Here you are again twisting facts. When will you ever stop with this?

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI don't expect you to understand as your passion for HIV poz guys to have BB sex is the most important issue in your life and your passion drives you.
    There is no such passion.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidIf you want to know how this effects me?? It's like this, I am single, I meet guys and I have sex like any other gay man. I get a lot of hot guys interested but what troubles me is not only are a lot of them willing to BB , in the last 12 months they are insisting on it.

    This trend is growing so 'pull the wool from over your eyes' [sic] and see what is really happening.

    Who the fuck are you trying to sell that to? Ridiculous.
    You prove once more... you are just so fucking dumb.
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    Nov 05, 2014 5:48 PM GMT
    frogman89 saidSidneydumb, do you actually READ what people write?

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidOk Frogface you go and be the poster boy having unprotected sex with HIV poz guys and leave the rest of us to live our lives without HIV.

    You also still have not answered the question would you bareback as the receptive partner for a guy who is HIV poz and 'undetectable'.
    I already did answer this and I said yes.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI would also like you to explain how you know he is 'undetectable' and if he is adherent to his medication treatment.

    Only an idiot would trust an FB so maybe you could enlighten us all with your example of how we should all trust the medication and go BB especially for a a HIV negative receptive anal sex partner.
    I did say it's none of your business. I trust him and I know him like I know myself. I haven't been disappointed.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidWhile I do have some concerns around the extremely high numbers for this medications efficacy 96%. The partner studies did exclude persons who, during the course of the trial become HIV poz,and persons who were not consistent with the treatment regime.
    Did we read the same study? Because excluding those who during the course of trial become HIV positive would be absolute nonsense. Who is left if you exclude those? Only healthy guys. It doesn't make sense at all to construct a study like that.
    Please give me your source for this bullshit.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidOverall it seems I have to remind you and the other 3 band of BB lobbyist that I am not here to throw doubt on the science and I want HIV to end and for people to have access to medication, longer lives and to reduce discrimination against POZ guys.
    There's no bb agenda, you dimwit. Just read what we wrote. I don't have the patience to explain it to you over and over again. It's about principles, not agendas.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidWhat I have been on about the whole time is the simple message. If this medication is promoted as 'a be all to end all' the consequences for the overall health could be catastrophic.

    That's not how it is promoted. Here you are again twisting facts. When will you ever stop with this?

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI don't expect you to understand as your passion for HIV poz guys to have BB sex is the most important issue in your life and your passion drives you.
    There is no such passion.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidIf you want to know how this effects me?? It's like this, I am single, I meet guys and I have sex like any other gay man. I get a lot of hot guys interested but what troubles me is not only are a lot of them willing to BB , in the last 12 months they are insisting on it.

    This trend is growing so 'pull the wool from over your eyes' [sic] and see what is really happening.

    You prove once more... you are just so fucking dumb.



    Wow. I'm not looking to get in the middle of this or take sides, but Jesus dude......look at your answers below and you'll see you have no right to call anyone "dumb." You're putting your very life in the hands of a mere fuck buddy. I can't think of anything dumber than that!

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidOk Frogface you go and be the poster boy having unprotected sex with HIV poz guys and leave the rest of us to live our lives without HIV.

    You also still have not answered the question would you bareback as the receptive partner for a guy who is HIV poz and 'undetectable'.
    I already did answer this and I said yes.

    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI would also like you to explain how you know he is 'undetectable' and if he is adherent to his medication treatment.

    Only an idiot would trust an FB so maybe you could enlighten us all with your example of how we should all trust the medication and go BB especially for a a HIV negative receptive anal sex partner.
    I did say it's none of your business. I trust him and I know him like I know myself. I haven't been disappointed.

    You see, with this type of blind trust, the question is not if you'll become HIV+.....but when.

  • frogman89

    Posts: 418

    Nov 05, 2014 5:57 PM GMT
    Who said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.
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    Nov 05, 2014 8:33 PM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 saidI have had many conversations about this with many of the staff of ACON and they would not be surprised but disappointed that the likes of you cannot let go of your pro bare back agenda. I'm not going to stop opposing you no matter what because you are dangerous and you are starting to sound more and more like a sociopath.

    Art Deco and I and many others openly oppose your agenda because we care about the issue. I have so many friends in real life I certainly don't care what you think of me. Please explain why you need to go into battle for people to believe that Prep is more effective on it's own and condoms are not essential in your view?? Or are you just so egotistical that because your views have been challenged you need to be seen to win the argument??


    You said you read the ACON Statement three times before linking it as evidence that BB was dangerous. That makes your reading comprehension suspect. I doubt your conversations with ACON staff were any more enlightening.

    If every health organization in the world says undetectable is VERY unlikely to transmit HIV, and you said it does......who is delusional?

    You and Art Deco don't discuss. You insult and shame anyone who disagrees with the likes of the two of YOU. Both of you started the 'mean girls' camp, others react to you.

    Psychopaths? Really? Actually you are setting up a scenario where more gay men will be needlessly infected.

    By compartmentalizing undetectable men, to be avoided at all costs, you shrink the pool of safer sex by 500,000+ people (and increasing) So what's left? The truly Negative men and the 20% who don't have a clue and are HIGHLY infectious from a new HIV infection.

    Most countries are using the 90 90 90 goal. 90% tested, 90% on TasP and a 90% reduction in new HIV cases. What you encourage is 90 90 and 50. Jeez maybe they'll jail you for preaching a health hazard!

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    Nov 05, 2014 8:59 PM GMT
    frogman89 saidWho said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.



    You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?
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    Nov 05, 2014 9:30 PM GMT
    Scruffypup said
    frogman89 saidWho said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.



    You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?


    What do you mean by a gap? Search "HIV undetectable gap" There is nothing. Any test result is a snapshot in time. With an HIV test it is a very small point in time. With suppressed ART it is much more consistent. While there are blips and spikes it is uncertain what the effects are, but no transmissions have materialized. ART reaches 97% of it's effectiveness within 6 months. In one paper I read there was no viral semen shedding after 3 years. Long term results are very stable, after the 1st 6 months.
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    Nov 06, 2014 1:01 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    Scruffypup said
    frogman89 saidWho said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.



    You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?


    What do you mean by a gap? Search "HIV undetectable gap" There is nothing. Any test result is a snapshot in time. With an HIV test it is a very small point in time. With suppressed ART it is much more consistent. While there are blips and spikes it is uncertain what the effects are, but no transmissions have materialized. ART reaches 97% of it's effectiveness within 6 months. In one paper I read there was no viral semen shedding after 3 years. Long term results are very stable, after the 1st 6 months.


    You are the one arguing the science, I am the one arguing about the implementation. On that note I took a survey from a San Francisco site advocating Prep which had 98% efficacy as the correct answer for proper use of condoms. You keep trying to compare the worst case for condoms with the best case scenario for being undetectable or on Prep so if you stop doing that this discussion doesn't need to go any further because we will be in agreement. I'm not holding my breath because it's clear you want more people to be willing to BB with Poz guys don't you just like your two mates do
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    Nov 06, 2014 1:06 AM GMT
    timmm55 said
    Scruffypup said
    frogman89 saidWho said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.



    You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?


    What do you mean by a gap? Search "HIV undetectable gap" There is nothing. Any test result is a snapshot in time. With an HIV test it is a very small point in time. With suppressed ART it is much more consistent. While there are blips and spikes it is uncertain what the effects are, but no transmissions have materialized. ART reaches 97% of it's effectiveness within 6 months. In one paper I read there was no viral semen shedding after 3 years. Long term results are very stable, after the 1st 6 months.


    I chose to take you challenge about a gap literally

    http://blog.aids.gov/2012/07/hivaids-treatment-cascade-helps-identify-gaps-in-care-retention.html

    Your desperation is showing through
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    Nov 06, 2014 7:54 AM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said
    timmm55 said
    Scruffypup said
    frogman89 saidWho said I trust him blindly? I saw his new test result every time. I know he takes in his medication with discipline. I know he doesn't fuck around. We share a history that makes me know he won't harm me. I took everything in consideration.



    You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?


    What do you mean by a gap? Search "HIV undetectable gap" There is nothing. Any test result is a snapshot in time. With an HIV test it is a very small point in time. With suppressed ART it is much more consistent. While there are blips and spikes it is uncertain what the effects are, but no transmissions have materialized. ART reaches 97% of it's effectiveness within 6 months. In one paper I read there was no viral semen shedding after 3 years. Long term results are very stable, after the 1st 6 months.


    I chose to take you challenge about a gap literally

    http://blog.aids.gov/2012/07/hivaids-treatment-cascade-helps-identify-gaps-in-care-retention.html

    Your desperation is showing through


    He said "You do realize there is a gap between test results, right?"

    I assumed he meant in a person's testing. He wasn't talking about the treatment cascade. [urlhttp://www.catie.ca/en/catienews/2014-02-19/gaps-british-columbia-s-hiv-treatment-cascade[/url]

    "In the United States, it is estimated that only 19 to 28% of people living with HIV are on treatment and have an undetectable viral load, suggesting that there are significant gaps in the continuum of HIV services."


    The Australia gap is smaller than the US. More people adhere to their meds. There is less of a gap.

    People fall out of treatment for many reasons, money, drug side effects, moving, failure to maintain regime schedule, etc. A lot more people can and should be on ART. This is sociology-economic gap problem, not a GAP in testing results.

    He seemed to be implying (considering context) there were gaps in undetectability even after it as been sustained while continuing treatment. If someone quits treatment it's not a gap, it falls off quickly.

    Sorry bud, this wasn't a "gotcha" moment for you.