Should the T be dropped from LGBT?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 2:18 AM GMT
    The term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 14, 2015 2:24 AM GMT
    Noeton saidI think there is a big difference between rights for gay people and transgendered people. Gay people are born gay and don't need to take hormones or make any biological changes to be gay. Other than true hermaphrodites (people born with the genitalia of both sexes) which is extremely rare, transgender is a result of "nurture" not "nature". It's a process of trying to change biological reality to conform to an idea which is a product of cultural values in a society (albeit the cultural values a small fragment of society). I definitely agree with equal civil rights for everyone. However I think that transgender people -- except hermaphrodites -- should actually be considered mentally ill in the sense that they want to inflict serious harm upon their bodies. It's really what rights they should have to mental health care that I think should be the issue. It's really awful when transgendered people are discriminated against in any way, but if their condition were consistently treated as a mental illness, then that would prevent at least some of that discrimination.

    They're not ill. If someone is ill, you try to treat or cure them. Trying to stop someone from being transgendered means trying to suppress something you can't dictate in people. Transgendered people have always been part of human culture. They're traditionally considered the most peaceful people, however today they kill themselves during puberty when no one will accept them. Don't spread fear. The best thing you can do for a transgendered person is let them be who they are and treat them like everyone else.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 3:11 AM GMT
    No, I think the B should be dropped though.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 3:11 AM GMT
    wesv saidThe term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.


    In that case the B isn't sexual orientation, it's just stupidity.
    Ah, yes.
    LG.

    Life's Good.
    =]
  • ThatSwimmerGu...

    Posts: 3762

    Jan 14, 2015 3:13 AM GMT
    I dont like being lumped together with transgender people.
  • SuntoryTime

    Posts: 656

    Jan 14, 2015 3:24 AM GMT
    ThatSwimmerGuy saidI dont like being lumped together with transgender people.


    Masculine gay men don't like being lumped together with fem gay men. You'll survive.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 3:48 PM GMT
    They are all issues around sexual and gender identity.

    Just because they add the complexity of gender does not mean we should drop them out of gay culture..

    Also its just an acronym. If you want to drop the T off it you don't need to pass a law.

  • Sebastian18

    Posts: 255

    Jan 14, 2015 3:55 PM GMT
    So, haven't been on the forums in a while and came across this thread - to be honest I'm a little disappointed in the lack of general education on the subject matter.

    By being part of the same-sex acronym, trans individuals are rarely recognized as a unique group that requires its own specific agenda to obtain equality. Instead, they are often considered an obscure and misunderstood subgroup of the gay community.

    In the beginning of the then-called gay rights movement, the battle against violence, outright discrimination and blatant intolerance was one that gays, bisexuals and transgender men and women were equally invested in.

    The inclusion of "T" in LGBT is there partially because trans* issues are often part of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues. Erasing the "T" is an act of subtle violence toward a community that still suffers from the bullying, discrimination and injustice from which many gays and lesbians have long since moved on.

    Similarly, there are members of the trans* community who in addition to fitting under the larger umbrella by being trans* also identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual as well as asexual.

    Personally, I've largely given up on the alphabet soup and even in my own sexual orientation identify by the much more academically descriptive "queer", the alphabet soup does have its utility as an identifying marker for various groups that through sheer intersectionality are affected by similar social and civil rights concerns.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 14, 2015 4:00 PM GMT
    Sebastian18 saidSo, haven't been on the forums in a while and came across this thread - to be honest I'm a little disappointed in the lack of general education on the subject matter.

    By being part of the same-sex acronym, trans individuals are rarely recognized as a unique group that requires its own specific agenda to obtain equality. Instead, they are often considered an obscure and misunderstood subgroup of the gay community.

    In the beginning of the then-called gay rights movement, the battle against violence, outright discrimination and blatant intolerance was one that gays, bisexuals and transgender men and women were equally invested in.

    The inclusion of "T" in LGBT is there partially because trans* issues are often part of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues. Erasing the "T" is an act of subtle violence toward a community that still suffers from the bullying, discrimination and injustice from which many gays and lesbians have long since moved on.

    Similarly, there are members of the trans* community who in addition to fitting under the larger umbrella by being trans* also identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual as well as asexual.

    Personally, I've largely given up on the alphabet soup and even in my own sexual orientation identify by the much more academically descriptive "queer", the alphabet soup does have its utility as an identifying marker for various groups that through sheer intersectionality are affected by similar social and civil rights concerns.

    This is a good post, but you're mistakingly letting a few rotten apples ruin the whole bunch. Most reasonable gay people understand that transgendered people are in our community and need our support. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot, and their posts are nothing but divisive hate speech.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 14, 2015 4:06 PM GMT
    SuntoryTime said
    ThatSwimmerGuy saidI dont like being lumped together with transgender people.


    Masculine gay men don't like being lumped together with fem gay men. You'll survive.

    as long as he knows how to love (trans people) he'll know he's still alive
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 4:13 PM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    Radd saidI've been saying this for years. I'm a little insulted that being gay is lumped together with gender confusion. That's what a lot of straight people think already so it's ridiculous to have that including under the same banner.

    LGBT is mostly a political statement, not a clinical one. The idea is to gather non-straights together into a unified group, with similar political goals.


    Which, unless you're speaking only of equal rights and no discrimination, makes about as much sense as trying to gather everyone "into a unified group, w/ similar political goals."

    We're a rainbow, remember? My question is who presumed to add the "T" - or the "B" for that matter - and who took the bait in the first place?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 4:16 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    Sebastian18 saidSo, haven't been on the forums in a while and came across this thread - to be honest I'm a little disappointed in the lack of general education on the subject matter.

    By being part of the same-sex acronym, trans individuals are rarely recognized as a unique group that requires its own specific agenda to obtain equality. Instead, they are often considered an obscure and misunderstood subgroup of the gay community.

    In the beginning of the then-called gay rights movement, the battle against violence, outright discrimination and blatant intolerance was one that gays, bisexuals and transgender men and women were equally invested in.

    The inclusion of "T" in LGBT is there partially because trans* issues are often part of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues. Erasing the "T" is an act of subtle violence toward a community that still suffers from the bullying, discrimination and injustice from which many gays and lesbians have long since moved on.

    Similarly, there are members of the trans* community who in addition to fitting under the larger umbrella by being trans* also identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual as well as asexual.

    Personally, I've largely given up on the alphabet soup and even in my own sexual orientation identify by the much more academically descriptive "queer", the alphabet soup does have its utility as an identifying marker for various groups that through sheer intersectionality are affected by similar social and civil rights concerns.

    This is a good post, but you're mistakingly letting a few rotten apples ruin the whole bunch. Most reasonable gay people understand that transgendered people are in our community and need our support. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot, and their posts are nothing but divisive hate speech.


    And so you have it: merely suggesting disagreement w/ HJ's programme makes you a bigot and a "hater."icon_rolleyes.gif
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    Jan 14, 2015 4:19 PM GMT
    Rene_Aensland said
    wesv saidThe term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.


    In that case the B isn't sexual orientation, it's just stupidity.
    Ah, yes.
    LG.

    Life's Good.
    =]


    I'm w/ you on that one. All it does is cater to a bunch of immature narcissists who crave attention. They're the G&L equivalent of Thomas Paine's "Summer Soldiers" and "Sunshine Patriots."
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 5262

    Jan 14, 2015 7:18 PM GMT
    wesv saidThe term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.

    I think a lot of guys assume that drag queens are T without the balls to admit it. I gather that isn't true but it probably has something to do with the association. I feel a bit uncomfortable around T people but then I do around Drag Queens, too, though probably for no good reason either. My only issue with the association of T with LGB is that their political agenda is mostly around the inclusion of the cross-over medical expense as an insurance benefit. I believe I even heard of a prisoner in the US suing his jailers because they won't provide medical coverage for him to tran, or whatever the hormone/surgery process is called. I'm fine with them doing it if they wish but I really don't think I should have to pay for it. Boy, that sounds Republican. Still....
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    Jan 14, 2015 7:22 PM GMT
    Fiyero27 said
    Radd saidI've been saying this for years. I'm a little insulted that being gay is lumped together with gender confusion. That's what a lot of straight people think already so it's ridiculous to have that including under the same banner.
    Why are you insulted? Trans suffer more than gays do. Considering what we go through, we should have some empathy for those who are transgender. In addition, the biological causes of orientation are similar to the causes of transgenderism.


    I highly agree, we, as a whole are already in a minority, why anyone would want to shun a certain group because they personally feel that they do not belong is beyond me, and I personally feel that these kinds of thoughts only belong to people who lack empathy.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 14, 2015 7:32 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    HottJoe said
    Sebastian18 saidSo, haven't been on the forums in a while and came across this thread - to be honest I'm a little disappointed in the lack of general education on the subject matter.

    By being part of the same-sex acronym, trans individuals are rarely recognized as a unique group that requires its own specific agenda to obtain equality. Instead, they are often considered an obscure and misunderstood subgroup of the gay community.

    In the beginning of the then-called gay rights movement, the battle against violence, outright discrimination and blatant intolerance was one that gays, bisexuals and transgender men and women were equally invested in.

    The inclusion of "T" in LGBT is there partially because trans* issues are often part of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues. Erasing the "T" is an act of subtle violence toward a community that still suffers from the bullying, discrimination and injustice from which many gays and lesbians have long since moved on.

    Similarly, there are members of the trans* community who in addition to fitting under the larger umbrella by being trans* also identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual as well as asexual.

    Personally, I've largely given up on the alphabet soup and even in my own sexual orientation identify by the much more academically descriptive "queer", the alphabet soup does have its utility as an identifying marker for various groups that through sheer intersectionality are affected by similar social and civil rights concerns.

    This is a good post, but you're mistakingly letting a few rotten apples ruin the whole bunch. Most reasonable gay people understand that transgendered people are in our community and need our support. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot, and their posts are nothing but divisive hate speech.


    And so you have it: merely suggesting disagreement w/ HJ's programme makes you a bigot and a "hater."icon_rolleyes.gif

    Sorry, but I'm not here to nurture these condemnations of trans people. I just read Destin making this into an issue about HIS taxes. Trans people aren't some cult trying to take people's taxes, anymore than Gay men who want the legal status of marriage. It's about civil rights, not special privileges.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 5262

    Jan 14, 2015 8:03 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    MGINSD said
    HottJoe said
    Sebastian18 saidSo, haven't been on the forums in a while and came across this thread - to be honest I'm a little disappointed in the lack of general education on the subject matter.

    By being part of the same-sex acronym, trans individuals are rarely recognized as a unique group that requires its own specific agenda to obtain equality. Instead, they are often considered an obscure and misunderstood subgroup of the gay community.

    In the beginning of the then-called gay rights movement, the battle against violence, outright discrimination and blatant intolerance was one that gays, bisexuals and transgender men and women were equally invested in.

    The inclusion of "T" in LGBT is there partially because trans* issues are often part of lesbian, gay, and bisexual issues. Erasing the "T" is an act of subtle violence toward a community that still suffers from the bullying, discrimination and injustice from which many gays and lesbians have long since moved on.

    Similarly, there are members of the trans* community who in addition to fitting under the larger umbrella by being trans* also identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual as well as asexual.

    Personally, I've largely given up on the alphabet soup and even in my own sexual orientation identify by the much more academically descriptive "queer", the alphabet soup does have its utility as an identifying marker for various groups that through sheer intersectionality are affected by similar social and civil rights concerns.

    This is a good post, but you're mistakingly letting a few rotten apples ruin the whole bunch. Most reasonable gay people understand that transgendered people are in our community and need our support. Anyone who suggests otherwise is a bigot, and their posts are nothing but divisive hate speech.


    And so you have it: merely suggesting disagreement w/ HJ's programme makes you a bigot and a "hater."icon_rolleyes.gif

    Sorry, but I'm not here to nurture these condemnations of trans people. I just read Destin making this into an issue about HIS taxes. Trans people aren't some cult trying to take people's taxes, anymore than Gay men who want the legal status of marriage. It's about civil rights, not special privileges.

    And what civil right is that? I'm all for non-discrimination inclusions. And I don't have a problem with the LGB association. But you can't deny that their political agenda also is asking for all of us to pay for their tran procedure. My guess is it isn't a very big number of people but it is a pretty expensive process and the costs are ongoing post surgery. I just don't think my insurance should be charged for it.
  • metta

    Posts: 54330

    Jan 14, 2015 9:15 PM GMT
    ^
    I do think we should be paying for it. They did not ask to be transgender. I have seen how some of them suffer...to the point where they are afraid to leave the house...to the point where they feel worthless and have no self-esteem because they can't be who they are. Human beings should not suffer for things that they did not choose. Society should step up and help these people because it is the humane/right thing to do.
  • Destinharbor

    Posts: 5262

    Jan 14, 2015 9:35 PM GMT
    metta8 said^
    I do think we should be paying for it. They did not ask to be transgender. I have seen how some of them suffer...to the point where they are afraid to leave the house...to the point where they feel worthless and have no self-esteem because they can't be who they are. Human beings should not suffer for things that they did not choose. Society should step up and help these people because it is the humane/right thing to do.

    Guess you're right. I've only met and talked to one but she was post surgery and seemed fine. I've never really explored the psychological pre-op side of it. I assumed (usually a mistake) that it was pretty much like a closeted gay which isn't the best but not a killer situation. Has anyone ever found a way to estimate the size of the T population in the US?
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    Jan 14, 2015 9:47 PM GMT
    Noeton saidI think there is a big difference between rights for gay people and transgendered people. Gay people are born gay and don't need to take hormones or make any biological changes to be gay. Other than true hermaphrodites (people born with the genitalia of both sexes) which is extremely rare, transgender is a result of "nurture" not "nature". It's a process of trying to change biological reality to conform to an idea which is a product of cultural values in a society (albeit the cultural values a small fragment of society). I definitely agree with equal civil rights for everyone. However I think that transgender people -- except hermaphrodites -- should actually be considered mentally ill in the sense that they want to inflict serious harm upon their bodies. It's really what rights they should have to mental health care that I think should be the issue. It's really awful when transgendered people are discriminated against in any way, but if their condition were consistently treated as a mental illness, then that would prevent at least some of that discrimination.


    That's what they used to say about gays in regards to being mentally ill. It only served to ostracize gays further, resulting in reparative therapy, suicides, shock therapy, psycho pharmaceuticals and in some desperate cases, voluntary partial lobotomy.

    And really you DON'T know if it's nature or nurture at all.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 9:48 PM GMT

    NOw here's a pic of a man some of you would like throw under the bus as Ts are different and don't matter.

    a338be9e025929e012c87f5353d84c3b.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 9:48 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    NOw here's a pic of a man some of you would like throw under the bus as Ts are different and don't matter.

    a338be9e025929e012c87f5353d84c3b.jpg


    Is he gay?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jan 14, 2015 9:53 PM GMT


    Yes, or Bi. He and others - they are friends of mine, have been on RJ for years as they transitioned to men. There are a couple of others here who are not complete and so have no close up face pics and state on their profile they're gay as they fear you and others like you on this topic for instance, that condemn them out of hand without hesitation that they don't belong.

    A couple more have left, disheartened and feeling pretty bad. Give yourself a pat on the back.
  • 24hourguy

    Posts: 612

    Jan 14, 2015 9:58 PM GMT
    Yeah, we should have just left it as "gay" period. No special word for the women.
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    Jan 14, 2015 10:03 PM GMT
    24hourguy saidYeah, we should have just left it as "gay" period. No special word for the women.


    Well then, if you were part of the group that created the acronym in the first place why didn't you bring it up then?