Should the T be dropped from LGBT?

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 12:05 AM GMT
    /thread
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 12:11 AM GMT
    go_dreaming said/thread



    Just because I have this opinion does not mean I think Trans people shouldn't have rights. They should but this is just what I think they are
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 12:25 AM GMT
    Oh, of course. You are free to have your opinion. But you still prove to know nothing about what trans people experience, so your opinion holds no weight.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 12:51 AM GMT
    So because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 1:16 AM GMT
    Inque saidSo because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you

    Im sure you could be straight if you just prayed hard enough and abstained from your gay lifestyle.

    icon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gificon_rolleyes.gif
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 2:02 AM GMT
    Inque saidSo because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you


    No, all opinions are not valid. If someone believes the world is flat their opinion is dismissed, and rightly so. What is your proof that they choose to be trans?
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 16, 2015 2:37 AM GMT
    Inque saidSo because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you


    If you...

    ...knew a trans person well
    ...knew specifically what kind of rights trans people are fighting for right now...
    ...knew how psychologists largely recognize that gender dysphoria as something that is not a choice and not curable

    ...you would have enough information to make an informed opinion.

    But you don't know any of those things.

    I'll cut you some slack. There are some things that are a choice for trans people. For example, it's a choice to seek out hormone replacement therapy. It's also a choice to pursue one of the available surgeries to change the chest and genitals. They can also choose not to do any of those things because they may feel comfortable exhibiting their gender expression otherwise. And sometimes the choice is not there, because all those procedures are expensive. And when you can't find work or a place to live, you have other priorities...like survival.

    But they do not choose to have gender dysphoria. Just as you did not choose to be attracted to men. You definitely choose to be sexually active with men. But if you weren't, you would still be GAY.
  • HottJoe

    Posts: 21366

    Jan 16, 2015 2:42 AM GMT
    go_dreaming said
    Inque saidSo because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you


    If you...

    ...knew a trans person well
    ...knew specifically what kind of rights trans people are fighting for right now...
    ...knew how psychologists largely recognize that gender dysphoria as something that is not a choice and not curable

    ...you would have enough information to make an informed opinion.

    But you don't know any of those things.

    I'll cut you some slack. There are some things that are a choice for trans people. For example, it's a choice to seek out hormone replacement therapy. It's also a choice to pursue one of the available surgeries to change the chest and genitals. They can also choose not to do any of those things because they may feel comfortable exhibiting their gender expression otherwise. And sometimes the choice is not there, because all those procedures are expensive. And when you can't find work or a place to live, you have other priorities...like survival.

    But they do not choose to have gender dysphoria. Just as you did not choose to be attracted to men. You definitely choose to be sexually active with men. But if you weren't, you would still be GAY.

    Wow. Great post!
  • Noeton

    Posts: 209

    Jan 17, 2015 2:40 AM GMT
    meninlove said
    Noeton saidI think there is a big difference between rights for gay people and transgendered people. Gay people are born gay and don't need to take hormones or make any biological changes to be gay. Other than true hermaphrodites (people born with the genitalia of both sexes) which is extremely rare, transgender is a result of "nurture" not "nature". It's a process of trying to change biological reality to conform to an idea which is a product of cultural values in a society (albeit the cultural values a small fragment of society). I definitely agree with equal civil rights for everyone. However I think that transgender people -- except hermaphrodites -- should actually be considered mentally ill in the sense that they want to inflict serious harm upon their bodies. It's really what rights they should have to mental health care that I think should be the issue. It's really awful when transgendered people are discriminated against in any way, but if their condition were consistently treated as a mental illness, then that would prevent at least some of that discrimination.


    That's what they used to say about gays in regards to being mentally ill. It only served to ostracize gays further, resulting in reparative therapy, suicides, shock therapy, psycho pharmaceuticals and in some desperate cases, voluntary partial lobotomy.

    And really you DON'T know if it's nature or nurture at all.


    It's definitely "nurture" and not "nature" when taking hormones and having surgeries are involved. I don't really know why I'm responding to this, when you could taken just a second to think about it: the horrible things you just listed are not really typical of mental health care today. So both of those comments are nonsensical. Obviously some part of the mental health profession today, maybe a big part, I don't know, thinks transgender is a good reason to have surgeries and take hormones. Hopefully that view will go by the wayside in the same way they stopped treating gays as mentally ill for being gay. You logically cannot change your gender -- ever -- what you're born with is what you've got for life. Really no matter what you do artificially (in terms of surgeries and taking hormones) it is always going to be artificial. Transgender is logically no different from getting a nose job -- but far more drastic. You for some reason don't like what you were born with and a surgeon is greedy enough to change if for money. Except that with transgender, it's a matter of "rights" and driven by some pretty fanatical people who are set on pressing a political agenda. Fanatics don't like reasons that run counter to their beliefs -- like this one: if your body doesn't naturally make the level of estrogen that women naturally make, you're not a woman. Change that by artificially elevating your estrogen and you are still not a woman, but only a man with an artificially high level of estrogen. The real pity is that this is all just logic and common sense but it's still so very far from anything that even crosses the mind of the pro-transgender camp (and that includes the mental health "professionals" who push that agenda -- their basic theory of transgender is derived more from social ideology than facts). I could go on, but, from the looks of it, people here aren't really interested in looking at the issue rationally. And if they are, they don't need me to tell them transgender logically has nothing to do with gay rights -- and it only confuses the concept and the pursuit of gay rights.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 3:51 AM GMT
    Noeton said
    meninlove said
    Noeton saidI think there is a big difference between rights for gay people and transgendered people. Gay people are born gay and don't need to take hormones or make any biological changes to be gay. Other than true hermaphrodites (people born with the genitalia of both sexes) which is extremely rare, transgender is a result of "nurture" not "nature". It's a process of trying to change biological reality to conform to an idea which is a product of cultural values in a society (albeit the cultural values a small fragment of society). I definitely agree with equal civil rights for everyone. However I think that transgender people -- except hermaphrodites -- should actually be considered mentally ill in the sense that they want to inflict serious harm upon their bodies. It's really what rights they should have to mental health care that I think should be the issue. It's really awful when transgendered people are discriminated against in any way, but if their condition were consistently treated as a mental illness, then that would prevent at least some of that discrimination.


    That's what they used to say about gays in regards to being mentally ill. It only served to ostracize gays further, resulting in reparative therapy, suicides, shock therapy, psycho pharmaceuticals and in some desperate cases, voluntary partial lobotomy.

    And really you DON'T know if it's nature or nurture at all.


    It's definitely "nurture" and not "nature" when taking hormones and having surgeries are involved. I don't really know why I'm responding to this, when you could taken just a second to think about it: the horrible things you just listed are not really typical of mental health care today. So both of those comments are nonsensical. Obviously some part of the mental health profession today, maybe I big part, I don't know, thinks transgender is a good reason to have surgeries and take hormones. Hopefully that view will go by the wayside in the same way they stopped treating gays as mentally ill for being gay. You logically cannot change your gender -- ever -- what you're born with is what you've got for life. Really no matter what you do artificially (in terms of surgeries and taking hormones) it is always going to be artificial. Transgender is logically no different from getting a nose job -- but far more drastic. You for some reason don't like what you were born with and a surgeon is greedy enough to change if for money. Except that with transgender, it's a matter of "rights" and driven by some pretty fanatical people who are set on pressing a political agenda. Fanatics don't like reasons that run counter to their beliefs -- like this one: if your body doesn't naturally make the level of estrogen that women naturally make, you're not a woman. Change that by artificially elevating your estrogen and you are still not a woman, but only a man with an artificially high level of estrogen. The real pity is that this is all just logic and common sense, and it's so very far from anything that even crosses the mind of the pro-transgender camp (and that includes the mental health "professionals" who push that agenda -- their basic theory of transgender is derived more from social ideology than facts). I could go on, but, from the looks of it, people here aren't really interested in looking at the issue rationally. And if they are, they don't need me to tell them transgender logically has nothing to do with gay rights -- and it only confuses the concept and the pursuit of gay rights.


    WOW. I must say you have really made me think. I can't claim that anything you just said is untrue. I guess I've never thought that deeply about it because I'm happy with my gender. But damn, you're really challenging a lot of my assumptions about gender reassignment.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 4:03 AM GMT
    go_dreaming said
    Inque saidSo because I don't have the opinion you want me to have my arguments aren't valid? That's very fascist of you


    If you...

    ...knew a trans person well
    ...knew specifically what kind of rights trans people are fighting for right now...
    ...knew how psychologists largely recognize that gender dysphoria as something that is not a choice and not curable

    ...you would have enough information to make an informed opinion.

    But you don't know any of those things.

    I'll cut you some slack. There are some things that are a choice for trans people. For example, it's a choice to seek out hormone replacement therapy. It's also a choice to pursue one of the available surgeries to change the chest and genitals. They can also choose not to do any of those things because they may feel comfortable exhibiting their gender expression otherwise. And sometimes the choice is not there, because all those procedures are expensive. And when you can't find work or a place to live, you have other priorities...like survival.

    But they do not choose to have gender dysphoria. Just as you did not choose to be attracted to men. You definitely choose to be sexually active with men. But if you weren't, you would still be GAY.


    I read several of your comments on this thread......EXCELLENT.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 4:33 AM GMT
    This Saturday, (Dec. 3. 2012) the American Psychiatric Association board of trustees approved the latest proposed revisions to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, what will now be known as the DSM-5. This marks a historic milestone for people who are transgender and gender non-conforming, as their identities are no longer classified as a mental disorder. Homosexuality was similarly declassified as a mental disorder in 1973.

    It was only after homosexuality was declassified as a mental disorder that ex-gay ministries formed, protesting the medical community’s decision to affirm non-heterosexual orientations. Some dangerous ex-trans ministries exist already and are championed by Focus on the Family, NARTH, PFOX, and other anti-LGBT organizations. It’s possible that these efforts may similarly increase in the wake of this DSM revision.

    http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/12/03/1271431/apa-revises-manual-being-transgender-is-no-longer-a-mental-disorder/

    he WHO is already revising its classification of transsexualism, but the reclassification is unlikely to take place until 2015 and even then there is no guarantee the reclassification will be approved by all 196 member states.

    The senior project officer managing the revision, Geoffrey Reed told The Huffington Post UK:

    "At the moment theres a double stigmatisation going on at the moment, both the stigma of mental illness and the stigma of being transgender.

    "There is no definitive base for saying that being transgender is a mental disorder, but neither is there a base for classifying it as anything else.

    "We just don’t know enough about it. It’s an issue about identity and the how people see themselves."

    He explained it was important to classify transsexualism in a way that still allowed people to access healthcare and stressed the importance of lobbying politicians at home.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/10/18/transgender_n_1982321.html

    I can't say "I get it"....but I've known a couple of trans that were as sane, or saner, than the vast majority of people who ARE considered sane.

    Myth #6: Transgender people hate their bodies.


    This is a very common myth. It does make sense that a person who identifies as a woman might be uncomfortable in her male body, and vice versa. And some transgender people are uncomfortable and want to alter their bodies. Others choose to live with their bodies as they are.

    Neither choice means that this person hates themself. On the contrary, a transgender person can love themselves through the whole process of transitioning. And we can love them too!

    Each person’s relationship with their body is unique and we should support every transgender person in doing what works for them.

    Myth #9: Transgender people aren’t “real” men or women.

    This is probably the most hurtful myth of all. It tells us that transgender people are somehow less human because of their gender identification. It is proof that they do not have a place in proper society.

    It is hateful and unacceptable.

    Everyone should have the right to be men and women, regardless of sex category or anything else.

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/08/myths-about-transgender-people/
  • metta

    Posts: 54330

    Jan 17, 2015 5:15 AM GMT
    ^
    From what I have learned about people that are transgender...the information in the above post is correct. I have a real problem with some of the statements that Noeton made because it goes totally against people I have known that are transgender.


    I really thought that the gay community got beyond this a long time ago. It is a shame to see this rise again.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:28 AM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Rene_Aensland said
    wesv saidThe term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.


    In that case the B isn't sexual orientation, it's just stupidity.
    Ah, yes.
    LG.

    Life's Good.
    =]


    I'm w/ you on that one. All it does is cater to a bunch of immature narcissists who crave attention. They're the G&L equivalent of Thomas Paine's "Summer Soldiers" and "Sunshine Patriots."


    It's a shame that nowadays I hardly hear the term "gay and lesbian." It always has to be "LGBT." "B" is not a homosexual orientation and "T" is really all about gender identity. The B and the T tell straight people that sexual orientation and gender identity are the same thing and bisexuality is the "bridge to a 'normal' lifestyle." "LGBT" just sends people the wrong message.

    And please don't say "they're fighting for the same thing." There are tons of minority people of all sorts whether it's race, ethnicity, religion, etc who are fighting for equal rights. Otherwise it should be "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ."
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:29 AM GMT
    wesv said
    MGINSD said
    Rene_Aensland said
    wesv saidThe term "LGBT" was coined sometime in the 90s. I wish it could just be the "gay community." The "T" is not a sexual orientation. It's gender identity.


    In that case the B isn't sexual orientation, it's just stupidity.
    Ah, yes.
    LG.

    Life's Good.
    =]


    I'm w/ you on that one. All it does is cater to a bunch of immature narcissists who crave attention. They're the G&L equivalent of Thomas Paine's "Summer Soldiers" and "Sunshine Patriots."


    It's a shame that nowadays I hardly hear the term "gay and lesbian." It always has to be "LGBT." "B" is not a homosexual orientation and "T" is really all about gender identity. The B and the T tell straight people that sexual orientation and gender identity are the same thing and bisexuality is the "bridge to a 'normal' lifestyle." "LGBT" just sends people the wrong message.

    And please don't say "they're fighting for the same thing." There are tons of minority people of all sorts whether it's race, ethnicity, religion, etc who are fighting for equal rights. Otherwise it should be "ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ."


    +1
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 4:31 PM GMT
    Noeton said
    meninlove said
    Noeton saidI think there is a big difference between rights for gay people and transgendered people. Gay people are born gay and don't need to take hormones or make any biological changes to be gay. Other than true hermaphrodites (people born with the genitalia of both sexes) which is extremely rare, transgender is a result of "nurture" not "nature". It's a process of trying to change biological reality to conform to an idea which is a product of cultural values in a society (albeit the cultural values a small fragment of society). I definitely agree with equal civil rights for everyone. However I think that transgender people -- except hermaphrodites -- should actually be considered mentally ill in the sense that they want to inflict serious harm upon their bodies. It's really what rights they should have to mental health care that I think should be the issue. It's really awful when transgendered people are discriminated against in any way, but if their condition were consistently treated as a mental illness, then that would prevent at least some of that discrimination.


    That's what they used to say about gays in regards to being mentally ill. It only served to ostracize gays further, resulting in reparative therapy, suicides, shock therapy, psycho pharmaceuticals and in some desperate cases, voluntary partial lobotomy.

    And really you DON'T know if it's nature or nurture at all.


    It's definitely "nurture" and not "nature" when taking hormones and having surgeries are involved. I don't really know why I'm responding to this, when you could taken just a second to think about it: the horrible things you just listed are not really typical of mental health care today. So both of those comments are nonsensical. Obviously some part of the mental health profession today, maybe a big part, I don't know, thinks transgender is a good reason to have surgeries and take hormones. Hopefully that view will go by the wayside in the same way they stopped treating gays as mentally ill for being gay. You logically cannot change your gender -- ever -- what you're born with is what you've got for life. Really no matter what you do artificially (in terms of surgeries and taking hormones) it is always going to be artificial. Transgender is logically no different from getting a nose job -- but far more drastic. You for some reason don't like what you were born with and a surgeon is greedy enough to change if for money. Except that with transgender, it's a matter of "rights" and driven by some pretty fanatical people who are set on pressing a political agenda. Fanatics don't like reasons that run counter to their beliefs -- like this one: if your body doesn't naturally make the level of estrogen that women naturally make, you're not a woman. Change that by artificially elevating your estrogen and you are still not a woman, but only a man with an artificially high level of estrogen. The real pity is that this is all just logic and common sense but it's still so very far from anything that even crosses the mind of the pro-transgender camp (and that includes the mental health "professionals" who push that agenda -- their basic theory of transgender is derived more from social ideology than facts). I could go on, but, from the looks of it, people here aren't really interested in looking at the issue rationally. And if they are, they don't need me to tell them transgender logically has nothing to do with gay rights -- and it only confuses the concept and the pursuit of gay rights.

    Wow, it is painful to read all this nonsense trying to make a logical point.
    1) nature vs Nurture. Please look up the definition of the debate and then show me where little boys today are being nurtured to feel they should become girls.
    2) comparing not liking your nose to gender-dysphoria should disqualify you and your arguments from being taken seriously at all, rationality not being part of your stance.
    3) not believing in gender-reassignment and espousing your opinion on here is your right, but that doesn't mean those who don't share your opinion are fanatics or wrong.
    4) you seem to know absolutely NOTHING of what gender-reassignment means to the individual, so spare us your ridiculous notions of what is natural, successful, necessary therapy.
    5) I don't know what your deal is on RJ, but in this thread all you've done is spread disinformation and misrepresentation of facts. Go away!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:40 PM GMT
    metta8 said^
    From what I have learned about people that are transgender...the information in the above post is correct. I have a real problem with some of the statements that Noeton made because it goes totally against people I have known that are transgender.


    I really thought that the gay community got beyond this a long time ago. It is a shame to see this rise again.


    Quite frankly, Metta, I thought he was full of crap and doesn't know any transgenders personally, as they wold have corrected him on several points.
  • roadbikeRob

    Posts: 22445

    Jan 17, 2015 5:44 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    metta8 said^
    From what I have learned about people that are transgender...the information in the above post is correct. I have a real problem with some of the statements that Noeton made because it goes totally against people I have known that are transgender.


    I really thought that the gay community got beyond this a long time ago. It is a shame to see this rise again.


    Quite frankly, Metta, I thought he was full of crap and doesn't know any transgenders personally, as they wold have corrected him on several points.
    If anyone is full of crap on here, it is you. Trans people have no legitimate place under our umbrella, period. They deserve equality under the law but not under the GLB umbrella. We have little to nothing in common with the transgender folks. But you are too stupid to understand that true fact and keep blabbing your same shopworn, ultra leftist hyperbole. Go figure.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:49 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    I see, so they'd be represented as being solely a bi or gay or lesbian person and not trans at all.


    Ummmm........YES. You finally got it. So proud of you! It would be no different than a straight Black person expecting to be represented under that banner.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:56 PM GMT
    Radd said
    meninlove said
    I see, so they'd be represented as being solely a bi or gay or lesbian person and not trans at all.


    Ummmm........YES. You finally got it. So proud of you! It would be no different than a straight Black person expecting to be represented under that banner.


    You can now explain how a skin colour is equivalent to a sex change. rofl
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Jan 17, 2015 5:59 PM GMT
    meninlove said
    Radd said
    meninlove said
    I see, so they'd be represented as being solely a bi or gay or lesbian person and not trans at all.


    Ummmm........YES. You finally got it. So proud of you! It would be no different than a straight Black person expecting to be represented under that banner.


    You can now explain how a skin colour is equivalent to a sex change. rofl


    I was joking when I implied you're dumb. I actually get the impression you're quite intelligent; just willfully ignorant. You're so politically correct it has apparently deadened your ability to reason. icon_confused.gif