POTUS, OBAMA, Throws Christianity under the Bus!

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    Feb 07, 2015 7:41 PM GMT
    Stephen, you represent a legitimate viewpoint, but you post too much. i simply can read them all, and it weakens your argument.

    "Under the bus"? Quite the contrary, if Christianity has any legitimacy, recognizing hideous events in its past is not only justice, but necessary. People have done horrendous things in the name of Christ.
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    Feb 07, 2015 7:49 PM GMT
    I wonder if there'd be this much faux outrage if he'd brought up priests raping little boys and the RCC covering it all up.
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    Feb 07, 2015 8:17 PM GMT
    HottJoe said
    roadbikeRob said
    HottJoe said^ Of course I'm not holy. I'm not big foot, either. These things don't exist. You're just caught up in propaganda.
    and you are a brain dead idiot who needs to lay off the whacky tobacky otherwise known as marijuana for the rest of your miserable, beshitted life. You are the dumbest of trolls on here.icon_wink.gif

    Beshitted???icon_eek.gif

    Honestly, I have the happiest life. I just don't believe in religion. I've always thought of religious people as unenlightened and dangerous.


    Seriously? ButT why?
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    Feb 07, 2015 8:25 PM GMT
    tazzari saidStephen, you represent a legitimate viewpoint, but you post too much. i simply can read them all, and it weakens your argument.

    "Under the bus"? Quite the contrary, if Christianity has any legitimacy, recognizing hideous events in its past is not only justice, but necessary. People have done horrendous things in the name of Christ.


    His name is Joe not Stephen.
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    Feb 07, 2015 8:39 PM GMT
    President Obama makes a calm rational fact-based statement - and the Repubs respond with hysterical over-the-top hissy fit ranting.

    LOL - just another day in American politics.
    The Repubs are such silly drama queens.

    Aren't we all used to this by now?
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    Feb 07, 2015 9:24 PM GMT
    HottJoe saidChristianity and Islam are based on the same mythological traditions. I think understanding where both of them came from, and the purpose of them, and how people have come to believe they're real, is an important part of realizing that they're not real. They're just manmade tribal legends used to control the masses, and they're are not worth fighting over. The universe is understood, and there are no mythological beings or evidence of supernatural phenomenon. The evidence only affirms that magic or a deity does not exist.

    The thing I disagree with Obama on is the suggestion that true religion is good. I think enlightenment is good, and religion is brainwashing. The more devoted people are to religion, the more deeply ignorant and toxic they become towards people outside of their faith.


    Obama is the classical tyrant. He will do anything and say anything to control the lives of other people. "True religion" is one of the tools of a tyrant.
  • LJay

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    Feb 07, 2015 9:31 PM GMT
    PLEASE guys, try thinking instead of reacting from a preset agenda.
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    Feb 07, 2015 9:42 PM GMT
    If I'm correct the KKK proclaims themself as a Christian group. Lets just say many hate groups hide behind religion as an easy way of shrugging off irrationality. Sometimes faith is based on blind ignorance.
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:09 PM GMT
    Religion = Product of living in a scary world we don't understand...but want to. Often used as an excuse to do all manner of things that would otherwise be socially unacceptable or unspeakable.

    Enlightenment = Understanding its impossible to know everything and spending time with things that actually matter and make us better people and the world a better place
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:18 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Physiqueflex saidIt seems to me that the point was that we don't condemn all Christians for the actions of the distant past, or recent past for that matter, by extremists such as the Klan, anti-abortion bombers, etc. acting "in the name of God/Christ" or whatever. Most Christians today are fine upstanding people, with some exceptions.

    We should remember this and not associate all Muslims with the violence perpetrated by extremists in their ranks.


    Then, let's see all those denunciations by Muslims of their co-religionists' barbaric acts. Good luck on the hunt, and it'll take more than a Wiki or google search to come up w/ much.


    I'd say the response by Jordan was a very strong denunciation, wouldn't you?

    One of the main takeaways of Obama's speech deals with just that. Because the president is making it clear that this isn't a war with Islam, more Muslims are going to show their support for the effort. Without a dominant US presence, more Muslim nations are going to stand up against the threat, and this is a better way to deal with the problem.
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:31 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Physiqueflex said
    socalfitness said
    Physiqueflex said
    musclmed said
    Physiqueflex said

    Good point, but a better one is why bring religion into the discussion at all? Do we care what religious affiliation murderers have? Did we care about the religions of John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Surhan Surhan, James Earl Ray, etc. etc?

    To be more accurate still, ISIL is a street gang. A little more well financed than your average street gang, but a gang nonetheless. They are not a "state". They are not an "army". They aren't "religious", they've bastardized religion. They don't take "prisoners", they kidnap people. They don't "execute" hostages, they murder them. It's not "terrorism", it's violence and murder.


    The left sure likes to note that Timothy McVeigh was a Xtian; I don't know how Sirhan Sirhan made it onto your list. And, the claim that ISIS is only a "street gang" is absurd, even when not compared to the depredations of the Bloods, Crips, Nortenos, Nazi Lo-Riders, and others. Sorry, you're both mischaracterizing and misnaming these terrorists, and that does nothing to help eliminate them.


    Timothy McVeigh's religion rarely comes up, except maybe to help Christians understand that there are people doing heinous things in the name of their religion, too, such as in discussions like this. Further, I never said that ISIS was "only" a street gang, I was speaking metaphorically, which I should no better that to do this when dealing with conservatives who can only see things at their face value. ISIS is loosely organized compared to the armies fighting them, and commit acts of violence at random. This takes an approach closer to what the police would use rather than the military.

    Words like "terrorism" and "fundamentalist" are too vague and open to interpretation, even with the "Islamic" modifier. They are outlaws who should be identified by their crimes in no uncertain terms. "Kidnappers", "hijackers", "bombers", and "murderers" leave no room for doubt. Their motives are secondary to their crimes.
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:35 PM GMT
    mista_me said
    President Obama, just like his Christian predecessor Bush, is merely pointing out that the vast majority of Muslims on earth are not terrorists, just like the vast majority of Christians on earth are not the Westboro Baptist Church.


    Exactly. Most people only know the part of the speech that they are told should be offensive without taking the whole thing in context.
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:36 PM GMT
    MGINSD said
    Physiqueflex said
    socalfitness said
    Physiqueflex saidGood point, but a better one is why bring religion into the discussion at all? Do we care what religious affiliation murderers have? Did we care about the religions of John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Surhan Surhan, James Earl Ray, etc. etc?

    To be more accurate still, ISIL is a street gang. A little more well financed than your average street gang, but a gang nonetheless. They are not a "state". They are not an "army". They aren't "religious", they've bastardized religion. They don't take "prisoners", they kidnap people. They don't "execute" hostages, they murder them. It's not "terrorism", it's violence and murder.

    I think religion is crucial because they use some of the Islamic institutions to recruit. If they are to be stopped, their means of recruitment must be identified.

    I maintain they are religious. They are following the violent passages of the Quran and state they are acting in the name of Allah. They are also supported by some of the extremist Imams. I think the most accurate description is they are extremist Islamic fundamentalists.


    I can't speak to the fundamentalist part, but you're right. I just don't think this is the right language. Calling them fundamentalists leaves room for doubt. Someone who is already a believer might be more easily swayed to believe the extremist rhetoric. Criminal violent murderer leaves no doubt that these are unrighteous people.

    It's hard for us to take this position because of our history, and I think it's time for us to take the high road lest we be seen as being on a high horse.


    I understand your point about taking the high road, but when dealing w/ people who understand only force, the high road leads only to a quagmire. Others who've trod that path - Woodrow - "too proud to fight" - Wilson, Neville - no quote needed - Chamberlain, and others who followed their tentative tread - were all proven wrong, but only after millions had already died following their bad advice. The ONLY place where I've seen the high road as the better road is in the practice of law in the courts of the US and other English common law countries, and even there it is sometimes necessary to deal w/ malefactors harshly. However, to paraphrase the exchange between Soviet UN ambassador Zorin and US UN ambassador Adlai Stevenson, we are not in an American courtroom or in the court of world opinion, but fighting in the streets and deserts for preservation of Western culture.


    got hyperbole?
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    Feb 07, 2015 11:56 PM GMT
    Sooo we wait for another 9/11??

    And BTW remember when Obama said how Christian he was?

    People are still being fooled by this admin, how sad icon_rolleyes.gif
  • j50yomuscle

    Posts: 12

    Feb 08, 2015 12:21 AM GMT
    Physiqueflex saidIt seems to me that the point was that we don't condemn all Christians for the actions of the distant past, or recent past for that matter, by extremists such as the Klan, anti-abortion bombers, etc. acting "in the name of God/Christ" or whatever. Most Christians today are fine upstanding people, with some exceptions.

    We should remember this and not associate all Muslims with the violence perpetrated by extremists in their ranks.

    Well stated!
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    Feb 08, 2015 12:29 AM GMT
    Physiqueflex said
    MGINSD said
    Physiqueflex said
    socalfitness said
    Physiqueflex saidGood point, but a better one is why bring religion into the discussion at all? Do we care what religious affiliation murderers have? Did we care about the religions of John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, Surhan Surhan, James Earl Ray, etc. etc?

    To be more accurate still, ISIL is a street gang. A little more well financed than your average street gang, but a gang nonetheless. They are not a "state". They are not an "army". They aren't "religious", they've bastardized religion. They don't take "prisoners", they kidnap people. They don't "execute" hostages, they murder them. It's not "terrorism", it's violence and murder.

    I think religion is crucial because they use some of the Islamic institutions to recruit. If they are to be stopped, their means of recruitment must be identified.

    I maintain they are religious. They are following the violent passages of the Quran and state they are acting in the name of Allah. They are also supported by some of the extremist Imams. I think the most accurate description is they are extremist Islamic fundamentalists.


    I can't speak to the fundamentalist part, but you're right. I just don't think this is the right language. Calling them fundamentalists leaves room for doubt. Someone who is already a believer might be more easily swayed to believe the extremist rhetoric. Criminal violent murderer leaves no doubt that these are unrighteous people.

    It's hard for us to take this position because of our history, and I think it's time for us to take the high road lest we be seen as being on a high horse.


    I understand your point about taking the high road, but when dealing w/ people who understand only force, the high road leads only to a quagmire. Others who've trod that path - Woodrow - "too proud to fight" - Wilson, Neville - no quote needed - Chamberlain, and others who followed their tentative tread - were all proven wrong, but only after millions had already died following their bad advice. The ONLY place where I've seen the high road as the better road is in the practice of law in the courts of the US and other English common law countries, and even there it is sometimes necessary to deal w/ malefactors harshly. However, to paraphrase the exchange between Soviet UN ambassador Zorin and US UN ambassador Adlai Stevenson, we are not in an American courtroom or in the court of world opinion, but fighting in the streets and deserts for preservation of Western culture.


    got hyperbole?


    No, just foresight.
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    Feb 08, 2015 12:56 AM GMT
    @MGINSD

    Aren't we already bombing the F out of them, especially with drones.

    What more do you want? "Boots" on the ground? Just curious.
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    Feb 08, 2015 1:09 AM GMT
    Ex_Mil8 said
    StephenOABC saidThe Muslims did not create in atrocities during the Crusades?


    Actually, the Christians were often more ruthless than the Muslims during the Crusades. I seem to recall that, during the various occupations of Jerusalem, the Crusaders slaughtered the entire Muslim population, whereas the Muslims gave the Christians safe passage out of the City.

    Ultimately though I think all religion has been pretty pernicious down the centuries, which is probably what President Obama meant.


    and actually the christians wipe out both muslims, jews and christians....

    Christians have killed millions in the name of religion through even the last century. It is just christians do not want to knowledge what is done in their name.
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    Feb 08, 2015 2:58 AM GMT
    President Obama is def a closet Muslim sympathizer.Does any Christian really care what he thinks about them.
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    Feb 08, 2015 3:49 AM GMT
    Are we really this polarized? President Obama is our president. Voted into office and should be judged by his policies and administration. Somehow I think some deep emotional feelings are spilling out. Maybe everyone should take a look at what is actually being brought into this. I dont think he is the best he could be but I certainly don't think he is the villain that the conservative wing keep saying. I hope in history passion set aside we judge him truthfully.
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    Feb 08, 2015 3:51 AM GMT
    tazzari saidStephen, you represent a legitimate viewpoint, but you post too much. i simply can read them all, and it weakens your argument.

    "Under the bus"? Quite the contrary, if Christianity has any legitimacy, recognizing hideous events in its past is not only justice, but necessary. People have done horrendous things in the name of Christ.


    For me, living under my Saturn on the Descendant beam rather than Venus on the Midheaven has been isolating. (Google/Bing Astro-Carto-Graphy.) So, I write a lot. Today, I did go to the library to do some reading in project management. I grabbed a Wall Street Journal and a New York Times newspaper on the way to my seat. Then at my health club, I saw two sets of horse and carriage in the parking lot for the Father and Daughter dance. I'd say there were maybe 200-225 father and daughters.

    Yes, "under the bus" or "throwing shade" on Christianity.

    Political-military decisions have nothing to do with iticon_rolleyes.gif--let's redirect people's attention away from the political-military-diplomacy arena and try to equalize Christianity with Islam.
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    Feb 08, 2015 4:18 AM GMT
    pouncer

    Stephen, you present a list of alleged aggressive acts committed by Muslims against Christians leading up to the Frankish invasions (or what are politely called in the West "Crusades") beginning in 1096.

    stephen

    638--Jerusalem surrenders to a Muslim army. Muslims soon begin construction of a mosque on the Temple Mount.

    640s--Egypt and Armenia fall to Islam.

    655--Muslims win a naval battle with the Byzantines; Muslims almost capture the Byzantine emperor.

    711-712--Muslims invade Spain and kill the king. After the collapse of the Spanish army, Muslims begin sending raiding parties into France.

    717--In the East, Muslims besiege Constantinople, the Byzantine capital.

    732--The Muslim invasion of France is stopped at the Battle of Tours (though Muslims would continue raiding France for a long period).

    800s--Muslims launch invasions of Sicily, Sardinia, and Corsica (south-central Europe). Muslims establish pirate havens along the coast of Italy and France.

    846--Muslims attack the outer areas of Rome.

    pouncer

    You seem to be forgetting that much of this "aggression" was committed against the Byzantine EMPIRE - ie. a Christian theocracy which formerly ruled Arabia and much of the Near East with an iron fist.

    stephenoabc

    No, the year 717 is listed. Nevertheless, give us some examples of the iron fist and we'll grant that Muslims had a right to rebel. (It may deserve more thorough treatment than that.)

    pouncer

    Al-Hakim for example was hardly a "Muslim" but a self-declared God who demanded worship in his own right under the title "Allah" - blasphemous words for any Muslim to utter.

    stephenoabc

    Abu ‘Ali Mansur Tāriqu al-Ḥākim (985 – 13 February 1021), also known as Al-Hakim bi Amr Allāh (Arabic: الحاكم بأمر الله‎; literally "Ruler by God's Command"), was the sixth Fatimid caliph[1] and 16th Ismaili imam (996–1021). Al-Hakim is an important figure in a number of Shia Ismaili religions, such as the world's 15 million Nizaris and in particular the 2 million Druze of the Levant whose eponymous founder Ad-Darazi proclaimed him as the incarnation of God in 1018. In Western literature he has been referred to as the "Mad Caliph", primarily as a result of the Fatimid desecration of Jerusalem in 1009, though this title is disputed as stemming from partisan writings by some historians (such as Willi Frischauer and Heinz Halm).[2][3]

    Histories of Al Hakim can prove controversial,[4][5] as diverse views of his life and legacy exist. Historian Paul Walker writes: “Ultimately, both views of him, the mad and despotic tyrant irrationally given to killing those around him on a whim, and the ideal supreme ruler, divinely ordained and chosen, whose every action was just and righteous, were to persist, the one among his enemies and those who rebelled against him, and the other in the hearts of true believers, who, while perhaps perplexed by events, nonetheless remained avidly loyal to him to the end."

    I don't think one really can have Islam disown Al Hakim.
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    Feb 08, 2015 4:44 AM GMT
    O M G, do you believe I left this for this? But the comments below have some relevance to this topic.

    Try getting through the first 7 min.s of this:



    YouTube Comments:

    How the hell is this even going on in college? lol


    "Historians estimate that between 650 and 1900, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave traders ..."

    According to these estimates the Atlantic slave trade enslaved more people/year but the Arab slave trade likely enslaved more people in total (and was more diverse.)

    It's estimated that Arabs took 17 million slaves from Africa, they castrated the males so as they could not have children. Hence here is no diaspora there today.

    There is a video called "Black African Slaves castrated by Muslims - Islam and slavery" search it on Youtube.

    I'd link you but it would get marked as spam. 

    OBAMA, YOU WANT TO GIVE US HISTORY LESSONS?

    About the castration, i know about that too, the Ottoman Empire in particular was really fond of eunuchs.
  • Rowing_Ant

    Posts: 1506

    Feb 08, 2015 9:06 AM GMT
    And with Christianity it's not just the Crusades and Inquisition either.

    Just look at Christians burning one another during the Reformation and Counter Reformation.

    Terorrism in Northern Ireland - sectarian violence - Christians shooting and blowing up each other and none Christians in a bitter legacy from 1916 (and earlier).

    All the anti-Gay laws didn't just appear from no-where you know....they're based on the bible.

    Christians going off to the "New World" and totally eradicating indigenous belief systems (e.g. Mezo America) or in Australasia.....

    Oh no. NO religion has "clean hands". (well, maybe other than Quakers). And for the President so remind us that extremism and violence exists in all religions is a good thing. As we've seen some Christianistts have got their knickers in a twist over this but sometimes the truth hurts. And I say so as a Christian (albeit very liberal Unitarian).
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    Feb 08, 2015 9:24 AM GMT
    southbeach1500 said
    MikemikeMike said
    Our hostage gets beheaded, Obama takes of on his pre planned golf trip?

    Jordan's hostage killed, burnt alive...they take immediate military actions.


    082114_rove.jpg



    BINGO!