Gays that don't believe in the bible? Is this more common now, and would you befriend them?

  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 04, 2015 11:32 PM GMT
    Sporty_G saidThis feels like a troll, but....fuck it!
    You go on a first date with a guy and get into a debate on religion? WTF is wrong with you?.... And now you are irritated with the guy because you couldn't sway him to your way of thinking? What were the opening comments on?....Abortion, Politics, Gun Rights? why does it matter that he is an atheist, well to do and comfortable with his world views and philosophy? He put up with you and your debate for 2 hours....maybe he liked you in spite of, or because of, those strong differences.....For someone so young to be so inflexible and closed to a different way of thinking is really disappointing. Good Luck if there is a next date.icon_rolleyes.gif


    As a Christian I hate to admit it, but many atheists' behavior is closer to what God wants than the behavior of some Christians' is.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 04, 2015 11:37 PM GMT
    bfirbs saidI've been an atheist since I was around 15 or 16. I cannot say I know there isn't a god. But personally I find the entire concept of a higher power rediculous and not because I'm gay. "walking in the light"? How is being part of religion walking in the light? To me that is walking in the dark. Very few of the modern advancements of today are because of religion.
    Why would this god(s) create mankind in his/her image, but create species of animals and plants that are dangerous or poisonous to us so we can't eat them? Why would he/she create disease? And the Adam and Eve story is a bit of a farce. Being as we know of DNA, if Eve was made from Adam's rib, her genome would have had XY chromosomes and not XX, making Eve a guy. And Adam being made from dirt? The bible is no more realistic than books by Dr. Seuss


    As a Christian, I do not understand how some Christians can actually take the Adam and Eve story as actual fact. No doubt it is no more than a part of ancient, and probably pre-literate, oral history. Certainly believing that is not required.

    So far as dietary restrictions go, that is simply part of ancient Hebrew culture which surely is not binding. The idea that all Christians believe that is completely absurd. I suppose that future anthropologists will think that all Americans believed the Paul Bunyan stories.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 04, 2015 11:45 PM GMT
    bfirbs saidThen there is also the principle that if your religion is the one true religion, then none of these other religions should exist. God is suppose to be the creator of the world and everyone and everything on it, so there would be none of these other religions because he/she would have been the one to give these holy teachings and could very easily have made sure everyone only worshipped him/her.
    Creationist theory is another farce. Even if someone is religious I don't know how anyone can believe that. The earth is 6000 to 10000 years old and yet we have things proving things have been around longer.


    Religious people who can think for themselves do not reject science. It is astounding that a few people read what aggressive and non-thinking fulminating fundamentalists say and assume that they are speaking for all of us Christians; they are not!!

    I am reminded of a sermon I heard in a combined Episcopal / Lutheran church in the little town of Robbinsville, NC. The priest said that according to science, the universe began with the big bang, then said, "What I want to know, is who lit the fuse?". Everyone laughed. The sermon was basically about the folly of rejecting science. It was an interesting little church. After the service, they had a full sit-down lunch and I met many of the people. Most were well-traveled and very well educated. Probably none were rigid Bible literalists and I doubt that any believed that the Adam and Eve story actually occurred.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 04, 2015 11:56 PM GMT
    StephenOABC said
    CLTMike46 saidWhere is the evidence that a crudely written Bronze Age book is valid? I'm waiting...


    In my profile is a video on Adam and Eve, a historical perspective. That is one way it is valid.

    The Bronze Age seems to end around 950 B.C.
    Books in the Hebrew Bible and the whole New Testament date after the Bronze Age.


    There are references in the OT to iron and it was known way before 950 BC. The bronze age did not end suddenly; in fact, it never entirely ended. We still use bronze; it's common for bearings. Iron would have gradually become more common and setting a definite date for the beginning of the iron age would not make much sense.
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    Mar 05, 2015 4:54 AM GMT
    uncharted95 saidI'm from a country where the majority are atheists. We don't really learn about Adam or Eve or the bible at school. And if we do, then it's just briefly mentioned in maybe a class and nothing more than that. Growing up, I never really thought the need of becoming religious.

    My parents come from two different cultures where different religions are being worshipped etc. But that just made the decision for me to become an atheist even easier, because I just couldn't bother choosing one.

    Honestly, I feel like there are other things that I should focus on, rather than being faithful to someone who can't be seen. Which also brings me to my other point that, I just don't really care if there is someone out there. Or how the universe was created. It's fascinating, but in the end I don't really care that much... I would rather focus on the present than the past.


    Incorporating Astrology in religion keeps religion current for the person.

    Besides, some things in the past are classic and therefore apply to people today and people tomorrow.
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    Mar 05, 2015 5:00 AM GMT
    FRE0

    As a Christian, I do not understand how some Christians can actually take the Adam and Eve story as actual fact.


    Stephenoabc

    The Adam and Eve story works on more than one level than the face value level.

    Jewish literature often is not to be appreciated solely on face value. People who criticize the Bible from that angle just don't "get" Ancient Jewish literature.
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    Mar 05, 2015 5:08 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    StephenOABC said
    CLTMike46 saidWhere is the evidence that a crudely written Bronze Age book is valid? I'm waiting...


    In my profile is a video on Adam and Eve, a historical perspective. That is one way it is valid.

    The Bronze Age seems to end around 950 B.C.
    Books in the Hebrew Bible and the whole New Testament date after the Bronze Age.


    There are references in the OT to iron and it was known way before 950 BC. The bronze age did not end suddenly; in fact, it never entirely ended. We still use bronze; it's common for bearings. Iron would have gradually become more common and setting a definite date for the beginning of the iron age would not make much sense.


    Oh, come on. Do you really want to say the Babylonian exile took place in the Bronze Age?

    There is a general academic understanding of what the Bronze Age means.

    Second, even before the Babylonian exile and the return from exile, subjects covered in the Hebrew Bible, there are the Psalms. A case can be made that some of the psalms ARE refined and not crudely written.

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    Mar 05, 2015 4:52 PM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 saidI had a rather eye opening debate with a guy I met the other day. We were having Sunday brunch, when the topic of global warming lead to a debate about the bible and even the beginning of time.

    Long story short, we chatted for 2 hours about his beliefs and my beliefs. Now, this happened to be a fairly well to do, put together guy with a nice career, car and who was rather polite towards me. But his views about creation dumbfounded me. It went as far as his not even believing in God, Adam and Eve, and the bible. When I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.

    He went even further to challenge me and say that one day, the bible will be exposed as a fraud, and asking me what I'll do about it. It annoyed me, but at the same time I told him that the bottom line is...believe what you believe in, and I'll believe what I believe in. You forcing your atheist views on me is no better than somewhat forcing Christian views on someone else. How does that make your belief any less imposing?



    Resist the temptation to overgeneralize what atheists are like. Atheism is highly diverse just like each religion. Atheism has its share of evangelists and intolerant types, again, just like religions. But there are plenty of atheists who are cool, tolerant of others, and content in living a diverse society.

    I grew up in a religious household, my parents are still quite religious, and my dad was actually a monk for a while during his youth, spending two years of his life in silent, contemplative prayer. Yet is was my father who taught me that the bible is not a literal document; it is rather a set of writings to guide humanity. The bible has many allegories, stories that teach. The creation story, in his view, is not literally what happen, but rather an expression that teaches us of the profoundness of world and human origins and god's role in it. For him, it is not inconsistent to believe in both theological creation and scientific evolution. For him, science explains the natural world and how it operates while theology explains why we are here and how to be good.

    I have friends of diverse religions and spiritualities as well as atheist and agnostic friends, as all people should. And from my understanding of Christianity and the Bible, it is the obligation of Christians to love others, so move past your hurt feelings about a religious discussion/argument and show love.
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    Mar 05, 2015 5:54 PM GMT
    ragazzo

    And from my understanding of Christianity and the Bible, it is the obligation of Christians to love others.

    Stephenoabc

    That love can be rejected, and then where does that leave us? It leaves us loving our Christian brothers only: how many times should I forgive my Christian brother? Answer: 490 times 70 x 7.
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    Mar 05, 2015 6:34 PM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 saidAlso, reason I am referring to gays, is because over the years...Most guys I've met over the years are so anti-bible, that it's crazy. ...yet we don't put our faith in God and the bible. We will walk in darkness, but not walk in the light...

    But...many of the assumed gay abomination was stuff written in the Old Testament, in those times. (whenever someone quotes a seemingly gay bashing verse, it's ALWAYS in the Old Testament. However, The New Testament offers a different perspective.


    Actually, Paul in the New Testament is quoted by the bigots as well. I'm sure you've read it, as I have.

    But about that walking in darkness thing. The belief in God IS a guiding light for many; however, it's a dim smoky candle compared to the enlightenment of reason.
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    Mar 05, 2015 7:20 PM GMT
    I don't consider myself an atheist because I do believe in a higher power, but I would find it difficult to be in a romantic relationship with anyone who was deeply religious or a creationist. I think there is a lot of good teaching in the bible, but I see it as nothing more than a book of fable and mythology. I don't force this view on others because I think that whatever we believe as individuals is what is true for us, but science trumps religion for me every time.
  • HottJoe

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    Mar 05, 2015 7:32 PM GMT
    I'm guessing gay people have more insight and are smarter than their straight, religulous counterparts.
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    Mar 05, 2015 10:19 PM GMT
    mickeytopogigio saidThe belief in God IS a guiding light for many; however, it's a dim smoky candle compared to the enlightenment of reason.

    More like the glowing end of the candle's wick right after it's been blown out.
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    Mar 06, 2015 12:42 AM GMT
    Wow, how can YOU be Christian? or believe in any other religion? that's the right question.

    Religious people have tried to brainwash all of us into believing in god when all the evidence is against it. The main point christians make is that you don't need proof to believe because you must make "a leap of faith", which is based on the premise that you've been brainwashed by someone else. It's just a vicious circle.

    So, after this premise, why are you surprised that someone doesn't believe in what you believe in? And why are you surprised they also tried to get some sense into you?
    I'm personally not the kind of atheist that will try to convert religious people, probably because I prefer to live and let live.
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    Mar 06, 2015 1:04 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    mickeytopogigio saidThe belief in God IS a guiding light for many; however, it's a dim smoky candle compared to the enlightenment of reason.

    More like the glowing end of the candle's wick right after it's been blown out.


    Let me amend mine by declaring that reason is a fusion-fueled sun.
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    Mar 06, 2015 2:39 AM GMT
    FuzzyPecs27 said

    When I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.



    You said it yourself. You're stating beliefs, not actual facts. If the reason you believe in the Bible is because your parents/pastor said so or because the words of the text say so, than your reasoning is critically flawed. Your position is that the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true. That's called circular reasoning. It would be the same as me saying I am right because God told me that I'm right. Would you accept that as a valid position? I'd hope not.

    I'd befriend your friend in a heartbeat. Irrationality on the scale of religious belief in a dogma is unsettling.
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    Mar 06, 2015 3:47 AM GMT
    SF79

    I don't consider myself an atheist because I do believe in a higher power, but I would find it difficult to be in a romantic relationship with anyone who was deeply religious or a creationist.

    Stephenoabc

    Care of the soul is part of romance and love. The soul, in a sense, being an essential part of life.

    SF79

    I think there is a lot of good teaching in the bible, but I see it as nothing more than a book of fable and mythology.

    Stephenoabc

    No appreciation for the history in the Bible?

    The Bible is not Greek mythology. Sorry, you're in error in your summarizing terms of what the book is.

    SF79

    I don't force this view on others

    Stephenoabc

    It's good that you do not because it is a flawed view.

    SF79

    science trumps religion for me every time.

    Stephenoabc

    Your every time does not include a time to meditate, to hold sacred, to comfort those who sorrow, etc.
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    Mar 06, 2015 3:59 AM GMT
    Italian_MS

    Wow, how can YOU be Christian? or believe in any other religion? that's the right question.

    Stephen

    Christianity is about personal salvation.

    Maybe you're blind to human loss.
    Maybe you're blind to people who have found their way after being loss.
    Maybe you're blind to people who have not settled for base levels of their character but have striven to evolve their character piously so they can answer for their lives when they are judged for what they were.
    Maybe you're blind to people who have a conscience and recognize sin in their lives and the price of sin.
    Christianity is about coping.
    Etc.

    Italian_MS

    Religious people have tried to brainwash all of us into believing in god when all the evidence is against it.

    Stephen

    The evidence from the human subconscious is not against it. Read Journey of Souls by Michael Newton

    Italian_MS

    I prefer to live and let live.

    Stephen

    But people agree on facts from other fields of knowledge while the basic facts of religion are left to anarchy. Not good.
  • bfirbs

    Posts: 55

    Mar 06, 2015 12:22 PM GMT
    FRE0 saidThe idea that one must believe that everything in the Bible represents the Will of God is nonsense. Historically speaking, that idea is actually quite recent.

    Parts of the Bible are a reflection of ancient Hebrew culture that has nothing to do with the will of God. Other parts are ancient Hebrew history slanted to justify the ghastly things that the ancient Hebrews did. It may be that the inclusion of the above is in accordance with God's will to give us a better understanding of the ancient Hebrews, but that does not mean that we are expected to follow it.

    Some of the OT prophets were very concerned with fairness and justice; that does represent the will of God to the extent that it is relevant to today's situation. The Summary of the Law, as reiterated by Jesus, does represent the will of God. That is, somewhat condensed, to love God and our fellow human beings. Many Christian theologians see that as the entire law.

    The Ten Commandments and some other parts of the OT are compatible with the Summary of the Law and are generally binding.

    So, what is meant by believing the Bible requires some explanation. It's not an all or nothing thing.


    Actually that is a load of BS. The bible and new testament are the basis for your religion. Just like the torah for jews and quran for muslims. If you call yourself a member of a specific religion but don't believe in its scriptures then it means your not actually following that religion.
    And....all 3 of those religions are a complete farce. No other way to put it. Might as well believe in fairies, leprecauns, goblins and vampires.
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    Mar 06, 2015 4:17 PM GMT
    StephenOABC said
    The Bible is not Greek mythology. Sorry, you're in error in your summarizing terms of what the book is.


    Actually, then you don't know your Greek mythology. Destroying the world with a flood and building an ark perfectly parallels the myth of Deucalion son of Prometheus. Dionysus was also born of a virgin and his birth is celebrated on December 25th. There are many more parallels because good myth always has roots in history and tradition. This is not to say that Jesus did not exist, but perhaps the stories used to shape his mythology are rooted in older myth. It would be no surprise that the early Christians would supplant Pagan feast days and stories with their own in order to sway converts.

    I've no problem with people believing in the message of the bible because it is, for the most part, a positive one. I also believe spirituality is an important part of being human. But as I said before, I could not be with someone who doesn't see it for what it is.
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    Mar 06, 2015 8:06 PM GMT
    Animus said
    FuzzyPecs27 saidWhen I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.
    You said it yourself. You're stating beliefs, not actual facts. If the reason you believe in the Bible is because your parents/pastor said so or because the words of the text say so ...

    I'm a big believer in genetics having a large effect on our mental makeup. Some people are simply more "spiritual" and it's easier for them to believe things that haven't been scientifically proven and I suspect that this greater spirituality could be mostly from their genes. Of course it's hard to separate "nature from nurture" since people are typically raised by the people who provided their genes.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 07, 2015 1:03 AM GMT
    bfirbs said
    FRE0 saidThe idea that one must believe that everything in the Bible represents the Will of God is nonsense. Historically speaking, that idea is actually quite recent.

    Parts of the Bible are a reflection of ancient Hebrew culture that has nothing to do with the will of God. Other parts are ancient Hebrew history slanted to justify the ghastly things that the ancient Hebrews did. It may be that the inclusion of the above is in accordance with God's will to give us a better understanding of the ancient Hebrews, but that does not mean that we are expected to follow it.

    Some of the OT prophets were very concerned with fairness and justice; that does represent the will of God to the extent that it is relevant to today's situation. The Summary of the Law, as reiterated by Jesus, does represent the will of God. That is, somewhat condensed, to love God and our fellow human beings. Many Christian theologians see that as the entire law.

    The Ten Commandments and some other parts of the OT are compatible with the Summary of the Law and are generally binding.

    So, what is meant by believing the Bible requires some explanation. It's not an all or nothing thing.


    Actually that is a load of BS. The bible and new testament are the basis for your religion. Just like the torah for jews and quran for muslims. If you call yourself a member of a specific religion but don't believe in its scriptures then it means your not actually following that religion.
    And....all 3 of those religions are a complete farce. No other way to put it. Might as well believe in fairies, leprecauns, goblins and vampires.


    Not true!

    Do you know anything about the doctrines of the various Christian churches?

    In the Episcopal Church and other churches in the Anglican Communion, doctrine is NOT established by the Bible alone. Rather, it is established by scripture (the Bible), tradition, and reason. Many other denominations use similar criteria, even those which deny doing so.

    If doctrine were established by the Bible alone, churches would even permit polygamy since nowhere does the Bible prohibit polygamy except for bishops. However, tradition does prohibit polygamy; it is a tradition that was established by the early church.

    The Bible permits slavery. However, reason, combined with the command to love our neighbors as ourselves, make it clear that slavery is not acceptable.

    Jesus prohibited divorce, or at leaf remarriage after divorce. However, one must look at culture as it was back then. In ancient times, a divorced woman usually could not support herself by acceptable means; now she can. Applying the change in culture and reason, divorce and remarriage has been accepted, although considered unfortunate.

    You may have superficially read the Bible, but that is not enough to understand the basis of Christianity. It is not static and doctrines change as conditions and understandings change. There is also considerable diversity of opinion within Christianity, and even within individual denominations.

    On cannot accept blindly everything that is contained in ancient texts. We have been given brains and should use them!! That fact that some people attempt to follow ancient texts without thinking is a very serious problem.
  • FRE0

    Posts: 4999

    Mar 07, 2015 1:10 AM GMT
    Lumpyoatmeal said
    Animus said
    FuzzyPecs27 saidWhen I presented my beliefs from what ove been taught and read over the years, he just made it seem like the only reason I believe that, is because I've been brainwashed to believe it as a kid, and that's the only reason.
    You said it yourself. You're stating beliefs, not actual facts. If the reason you believe in the Bible is because your parents/pastor said so or because the words of the text say so ...

    I'm a big believer in genetics having a large effect on our mental makeup. Some people are simply more "spiritual" and it's easier for them to believe things that haven't been scientifically proven and I suspect that this greater spirituality could be mostly from their genes. Of course it's hard to separate "nature from nurture" since people are typically raised by the people who provided their genes.


    Probably genetics does have considerable influence on our mental makeup. Also, brain abnormalities and damage can affect us mentally. For example, a person may be kind and generous before having a stroke. After recovery from the stroke, intelligence and physical abilities may be totally restored, but the personality may be completely different. The person may then be unkind and totally selfish. That raises the question about to what extent people are actually responsible for their behavior. Of course dangerous people must be controlled in some manner for the protection of the rest of us, but it does mean that we cannot assume that they will be condemned by God since we cannot fully understand them. It that sense, we should not judge and we should make no assumptions. Unfortunately, many religious people are much to quick to judge.
  • bfirbs

    Posts: 55

    Mar 07, 2015 10:37 AM GMT
    FRE0 said
    bfirbs said
    FRE0 saidThe idea that one must believe that everything in the Bible represents the Will of God is nonsense. Historically speaking, that idea is actually quite recent.

    Parts of the Bible are a reflection of ancient Hebrew culture that has nothing to do with the will of God. Other parts are ancient Hebrew history slanted to justify the ghastly things that the ancient Hebrews did. It may be that the inclusion of the above is in accordance with God's will to give us a better understanding of the ancient Hebrews, but that does not mean that we are expected to follow it.

    Some of the OT prophets were very concerned with fairness and justice; that does represent the will of God to the extent that it is relevant to today's situation. The Summary of the Law, as reiterated by Jesus, does represent the will of God. That is, somewhat condensed, to love God and our fellow human beings. Many Christian theologians see that as the entire law.

    The Ten Commandments and some other parts of the OT are compatible with the Summary of the Law and are generally binding.

    So, what is meant by believing the Bible requires some explanation. It's not an all or nothing thing.


    Actually that is a load of BS. The bible and new testament are the basis for your religion. Just like the torah for jews and quran for muslims. If you call yourself a member of a specific religion but don't believe in its scriptures then it means your not actually following that religion.
    And....all 3 of those religions are a complete farce. No other way to put it. Might as well believe in fairies, leprecauns, goblins and vampires.


    Not true!

    Do you know anything about the doctrines of the various Christian churches?

    In the Episcopal Church and other churches in the Anglican Communion, doctrine is NOT established by the Bible alone. Rather, it is established by scripture (the Bible), tradition, and reason. Many other denominations use similar criteria, even those which deny doing so.

    If doctrine were established by the Bible alone, churches would even permit polygamy since nowhere does the Bible prohibit polygamy except for bishops. However, tradition does prohibit polygamy; it is a tradition that was established by the early church.

    The Bible permits slavery. However, reason, combined with the command to love our neighbors as ourselves, make it clear that slavery is not acceptable.

    Jesus prohibited divorce, or at leaf remarriage after divorce. However, one must look at culture as it was back then. In ancient times, a divorced woman usually could not support herself by acceptable means; now she can. Applying the change in culture and reason, divorce and remarriage has been accepted, although considered unfortunate.

    You may have superficially read the Bible, but that is not enough to understand the basis of Christianity. It is not static and doctrines change as conditions and understandings change. There is also considerable diversity of opinion within Christianity, and even within individual denominations.

    On cannot accept blindly everything that is contained in ancient texts. We have been given brains and should use them!! That fact that some people attempt to follow ancient texts without thinking is a very serious problem.


    Yeah your still pretty full of crap! The doctrines of your religion whether you want to admit it or not come from the bible and testement. Your religious followers knows they are legally not allowed to do most of what the bible says so it picks and chooses what it wants and then makes up new doctrines as it goes along. Much like most other religions when its trying to keep people believing. So they make up new things and then try to find or fabricate points in the bible to give the "ok" on it. Even the bible itself has been changed repeatedly over the centuries. And the point of faith is literally to blindly accept it. That is why it is called faith and not fact. But keep pretending your a christian if it makes you feel better.
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    Mar 07, 2015 4:50 PM GMT
    SF79 said
    StephenOABC said
    The Bible is not Greek mythology. Sorry, you're in error in your summarizing terms of what the book is.


    Actually, then you don't know your Greek mythology. Destroying the world with a flood and building an ark perfectly parallels the myth of Deucalion son of Prometheus. Dionysus was also born of a virgin and his birth is celebrated on December 25th. There are many more parallels because good myth always has roots in history and tradition. This is not to say that Jesus did not exist, but perhaps the stories used to shape his mythology are rooted in older myth. It would be no surprise that the early Christians would supplant Pagan feast days and stories with their own in order to sway converts.

    I've no problem with people believing in the message of the bible because it is, for the most part, a positive one. I also believe spirituality is an important part of being human. But as I said before, I could not be with someone who doesn't see it for what it is.


    What came first, the flood or the myth trying to make sense of a geological event?