Tel Aviv tips

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:50 PM GMT
    1. Where is the "Palestinian" archaeology?! Or history?! Even Art?
    Why is there no mention of them by the Persians, Greeks or Romans?
    The Arab invasion, conquest, occupation and colonization came later!

    Arab art, architecture and history dates back to the ARAB CONQUEST of the 7th century CE.
    None of it was identified as "Palestinian" prior to the latter half of the 20th century.
    It was Arab, and there was no distinction between this area and Lebanon, Syria or Trans-Jordan.

    We have Jewish, Arab (Umayyad, Abbasid, Fatimid), Crusader, Ayyubid, Mamluke and Ottoman art, architecture and history.

    AyaTrolLiar> [but you made a 1 letter typo....]

    AyaTrolLiar> "Palestinian" as a noun goes back centuries in Arabic

    2. According to Spammer Sam's source (which, of course, the AyaTrolLiar didn't contest when Spammer posted it), "Palestinian" first appeared in Arabic in modern history in 1898:

    || this represents the first instance in modern history where the term ‘Palestinian’ or ‘Filastini’ appears in Arabic.

    AyaTrolLiar> [MIA]

    3. Arabs in what today is northern Israel were closer to Arabs in Lebanon than to Arabs in southern Israel, who were closer to Egyptians (many of them were Egyptians and even Sudanese) and to Arabs in eastern Israel, who were closer to Arabs in Trans-Jordan (from which many had arrived). Maybe I'll post a thread about the differences in housing/architecture, pottery, and dress/costume in different areas.

    AyaTrolLiar> The dialect, food etc. in Palestine has always been regionally distinct and recognized.

    Even today that's not true.

    4. With respect to dialect, different groups speak different dialects [plural!] based on their origins.

    || The Palestinian Arabic dialects are varieties of Levantine Arabic

    SpamSam's graphic confirms this:


    AyaTrolLiar> an American could easily identify my "British accent", without necessarily knowing the region.

    Or he might confuse it for Australian or South African.

    In the USA, people in Phoenix and Michigan sound similar.
    Because many left Michigan for Phoenix.
    Claiming a Michigan accent is a Phoenix dialect doesn't quite cut it.
    In a few generations, they'll mix in and grow apart.

    If the Arabs in the Land of Israel were non-Arabs who were "Arabized", their Arabic today - in such a small region - would be nearly identical.

    It is precisely because there were different waves of immigration, from different areas (speaking different dialects) that we have this amalgamation.

    AyaTrolLiar> Egyptians for example spoke an entirely distinct form of Arabic

    || Palestinian like Egyptian, typically suffixes ش [ʃ] on top of using the preverb negation /ma/

    || Palestinian also shares items with Egyptian Arabic, e.g. 'like' (prep.) is زي [zejj] in Palestinian in addition to مثل [mɪtl], as found in Syrian and Lebanese Arabic.

    As the 1911 Britannica tells us:

    || In the 19th century the short-lived Egyptian government introduced into the population an element from that country which still persists in the villages. These newcomers have not been completely assimilated with the villagers among whom they have found a home; the latter despise them, and discourage intermarriage.

    It's called endogamy and is strong in that part of the world, and was true going back a millennium (locals didn't mix with foreigners) and in the following decades. Yet the AyaTrolLiar wants people to believe that these Egyptian colonists, 4 and 8 generations later, are speaking some ancient Palestinian Arab dialect that magically has Egyptian properties.

    5. As for cuisine:

    || The cuisine is a diffusion of the cultures of civilizations that settled in the region of Palestine....

    || there are three regions of Palestinian food; The Galilee, which is the northern part of the State of Israel, the "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip"

    || The cuisine of the Galilee is very similar to Lebanese cuisine....

    Compare to my point 3 above.
    Ding ding ding... we have a winner!

    || ...having its roots from the Bedouin population of ancient Arabia.


    AyaTrolLiar> The Arabs in northern Palestine are Sunnis. In southern Lebanon they're Shi'a.

    He thinks Sunnis eat different food or speak differently from Shia?
    He's actually proving my point. The reality is that both are mixed.

    6. There are Arab Christians in northern Israel - and southern Lebanon.
    They are closer to each other than to Sunni or Shia Arabs in northern Israel or southern Lebanon.
    As the Druze are closer to each other than the above, regardless of which side of a 1923 border they live.
    Just as Armenians in Beirut or Jerusalem are closer to each other than to the Druze or other Arabs.

    AyaTrolLiar> [out to lunch]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:51 PM GMT
    7. Jews have lived on this land, CONTINUOUSLY, for over 3,300 years. The archaeological and non-Biblical history says the Israelite confederation was formed from local Canaanite tribes (e.g. Asher) and regional migratory tribes (e.g. the Shasu), meaning the ancestors of the Jews lived there for millennia before that.

    AyaTrolLiar> the ancient Hebrews originated in Mesopotamia (as the name suggests and the Bible records). While there was likely some local integration, the Hebrew influx took place about 3,100 years ago, from staging posts mostly in the east but also from Egypt

    There is zero extra-biblical evidence of this and much evidence to the contrary, as his own source Ahlstrom shows and is commonly accepted by both archaeologists and historians. (The AyaTrolLiar, with his usual idiot's bravado, quoted a half sentence out of context from Ahlstrom's book, ignoring that the sentence, paragraph, chapter and book all say the exact opposite of his attempt to twist a handful of words.)

    AyaTrolLiar> Your expert source:

    ROTFL. He's quoting a brief encyclopedia entry which is NOT my source.
    I was referencing his expert source, an authority on the subject, who wrote a 990 page book on "The Ancient History of Palestine".

    Do you see the deranged levels of idiocy? He's referencing an encyclopedia, lying that it's my "expert source" and pretending that trumps his own prior source which he dropped once he realized that it completely rejected his thesis.

    As has happened at least 3 times, the AyaTrolLiar has referenced and lied about the contents of books that I have read and are on my bookshelf. He's been repeatedly caught doing the same with other books, even ignoring their thesis title while twisting a line here or there to argue the opposite.

    AyaTrolLiar> the ancestry of modern Jews, who are 56-73% genetically European, hence not native to the Middle East but White colonialists

    8. Ah, again the ultimate Anti-semitic argument that Jews aren't racially pure enough.
    Our resident racist seeks to rationalize his lies with his genetic fantasies which even if true (and they're not) would be irrelevant.

    AyaTrolLiar> accepts, in as many words, that this is true, albeit in language disguised as a refutation

    ROTFL. Once a flunky, always a flunky.

    AyaTrolLiar> Arabs have lived on this land for at least 4,000, possibly 7,000 years. Continuously.

    9. Did Arabs even exist 4,000 let alone 7,000 years ago?
    Never mind the Greeks and Romans, but how did the Assyrians and Babylonians interact with these Arabs?
    Where is the Arab archaeological layer in this region (other than the 7-11th centuries CE)?!

    AyaTRolLiar> Bedouin dwellings and cemeteries in the Negev are truly ancient

    Yet you told us this has nothing to do with the "Palestinians" who aren't Arabs.

    Regardless, the Bedouin only arrived in the Negev in the 18th century.

    The Nawamis tombs (in Sinai, not the Negev) are not Bedouin tombs nor "dwellings".
    The name was given to them by the Bedouin... who attribute them to Israelites!

    What idiocy next? If the Pyramids weren't well known in the western world, would the AyaTrolLiar suggest they were "Bedouin dwellings and cemeteries" because we know them by their Bedouin name (never mind if that name attributed them to being built by the Israelites)?

    Again ponder the insanity: "Bedouin dwellings"?
    They were nomads living in tents!
    But he thinks they were "Arabs" and had "dwellings" 5,000 years ago?

    AyaTrolLiar> the Nabateans

    Yup, at the southern periphery.
    And emerged from the Arabian desert only about 2,000 years ago.

    If he's arguing that the Palestinian Arabs descend from the Nabateans, then he's undermining himself (as someone relegated to working back through the maze often does; the starting point is irrelevant as long as it leads to the preconceived "conclusion", thus contradictory starting points - conflicting premises - are overlooked).

    One could also say (you'd think he would!) that the Nabatean Empire occupied part of the Negev and established a handful of illegal settlements - colonies - there.

    AyaTrolLiar> Jerusalem and other non-Jewish cities have had Arab residents at least since Biblical times.

    Yes, it is known that there was 1 Arab trader in Jerusalem in the 6th century BCE.
    He's mentioned in the Bible. Not as a "native", but as a trader.

    I'm sure there were more during the time of Herod.
    You know, 7 million Jews and maybe 7 Arab traders.
    And the fool thinks this supports rather than ridicules his lies?

    He says "yup", but let's get a reality check about Arabs living on this land already 7,000 years ago (or even 4,000):

    || The first written attestation of the ethnonym Arab occurs in an Assyrian inscription of 853 BCE

    That's less than 3,000 years ago, and in reference to people in Arabia.
    Not in Sinai or the southern Negev (where they arrived only about 2,000 years ago).

    Again ponder that the AyaTrolLiar is arguing against himself.
    A. Palestinians are allegedly not Arabs.
    B. Arabs have lived here for at least "4,000 years, possibly 7,000".

    This is the crack of someone who reverses the scientific method, who derives "facts" to suit his false "model".

    10. Only two cities had Arabic names (Ramla and Ramallah), many others being Arabic mispronunciation of older names.

    AyaTrolLiar> almost every place name was Arabic apart from a few "cities"

    Which is like saying that Pontiac and Michigan are English names, that places in the USA have English, not Indian, names.

    11. The propagandists argue that modern Nahalal (founded in 1921) replaced Ma'lul (they even misquote Moshe Dayan to "prove" this, and contradictingly also count it as a village that was "ethnically cleansed" in 1948 ). Yet it was already known as Mahlul in Roman (pre-Arab) times. The Jerusalem Talmud tells us that "Nahalal is Mahalul". Yet uneducated imbeciles and flunkies posit that Mahlul is Arabic. icon_rolleyes.gif

    AyaTrolLiar> [lost, can't decide which of the contradicting lies to peddle]

    12. Tel Aviv was founded on sand dunes in 1909).

    AyaTrolLiar> It's a fictional name intended to sound ancient, for a city without history.

    It's amazing, one can practically hear the voices in his head.
    Tel Aviv, founded in 1909, didn't need to pretend it had a history.
    The country had plenty of that.
    The name means "hill of hope" - to revitalize the country.
    And they did.

    AyaTrolLiar> Actually it means "Hill of Spring", and is a Biblical name.

    Literally, yes. But that wasn't the point. Spring as in birth and renewal, hope.

    Note this mindless criticism for the sake of criticism:

    AyaTrolLiar> it's in the wrong location

    The Biblical Tel Aviv is in Mesopotamia.
    The name was only inspired by that.
    No one pretended to put it at that location.
    (Unlike, for example, Nahalal or Ein Gedi.)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:51 PM GMT
    AyaTrolLiar> much of the forests now are made up

    13. Finally he's admitting that most of the ancient forests were gone, the land desolate, when Zionism began.
    (Israel is the only country in the world to have more trees in 2000 than in 1900.)

    AyaTrolLiar> Israel didn't exist in 1900

    That's hardly the point. If he prefers, he can read that as:
    Israel is the only country in the world to have more trees in 2000 than its territory had in 1900.

    AyaTrolLiar> The land was far from "desolate", though the Ottomans had destroyed many of the natural forests in World War I.

    There were few forests left for the Ottomans to destroy. From his own source:

    || At the beginning of the 19th century, the towns up and down Palestine's coast were mere shells of their former selves, the grandeur and vibrancy of the biblical, Roman, or Arabic eras having been eroded by prolonged misery and neglect.

    14. Jews revolting against the Romans 1800 years ago found refuge in caves near Nahal Arugot.
    How come the "Palestinians" never interacted with the Romans? Oh, right, they weren't yet there.

    AyaTrolLiar> Palestinian ancestors have lived in the southern Levant since "prehistoric times"

    Yet they have no oral let alone written history of events here prior to the 7th century?
    And none of the foreign conquerors who came through ever saw them?
    They never made peace treaties or fought and rebelled against them?

    15. Ein Gedi had a Synagogue (pictured above) and its Hebrew name long before the Arab conquest.

    AyaTrolLiar> That "conquest" included Jews

    So? One occupier (Byzantines) was replaced with another (Arab).
    But the place name and Synagogue predate the Arab conquest.
    As is true throughout the country.

    AyaTrolLiar> Jews were converts from Arab tribes

    ROTFL. He's drunk on the Kool Aid.

  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:52 PM GMT
    16. Jews are an ethnic group - unlike Christians and Muslims.
    Similar to Druze and Armenians.

    AyaTrolLiar> One cannot convert to an "ethnic group", only to a religion.

    As has been discussed dozens of times, Judaism doesn't have conversion.
    Jews allow for "conversion" (the closest word) to the Jewish people.
    Part of which entails adopting the tribal religion.

    AyaTrolLiar> [Plagiarizes wikipedia]

    Let me stress the relevant section from his own quote:

    || and acceptance of the Jewish community, culture, and history

    That's more than just religious belief.

    Contemplate that while גיור‎ (giyur) translates to "conversion", the word "conversion" translates to הֲמָרָה.

    It is typical of the flunky to twist a simple answer to a complex question and get it all wrong.
    And it's not just ignorance, unless maybe he's brain damaged and "forgot" that we've discussed this previously?

    || Religion, after all, is all about belief. If you believe, you’re in; if not, you’re out. So why can’t anyone who believes in the Jewish religion be considered Jewish? And why are those who don’t believe and don’t keep any of the Jewish practices still considered Jews?

    || That’s what happens when you view the Jewish people through another people’s lexicon—it all looks very puzzling. What, though, if we look at ourselves through our own language, through the original Hebrew?

    || You are part of this people by virtue of having been born into it, and that’s who this people are

    || Let’s say you decide you want to enter into the same covenant [brit] as every other Jew. If this were a religion, no problem—you would just accept upon yourself whatever beliefs and rites are expected of you, and you’re in.

    || But this [Judaism] is a brit. To enter into G‑d’s covenant with the Jewish people, believing and doing is not enough. You need to become part of that people. How do you do that?

    You guessed it, giyur - which is not "conversion" into a "religion", but much more.

    || A ger is more than a convert. A ger literally means someone who has come to live among a people to which he or she was not born. A naturalized alien. That’s how the ger is described in Torah, and how the process of becoming a ger is described in the Talmud

    || In short, a ger is an adopted member of the Jewish family. In the words of the paradigm of all gerim, Ruth the Moabite, “Your people are my people; your G‑d is my G‑d.”

    17. That other ethnic groups don't provide for such doesn't preclude Jews from being an ethnic group.

    I think this is simple enough for a 10 year old to understand (in fact, I think even Spammer gets it).
    Why is it so difficult for the Jew-hating AyaTrolLiar to reconcile and remember this?

    AyaTrolLiar> there are Black and Hispanic Jews.

    Yup, our resident racist once again reveals his racial hangups.

    AyaTrolLiar> [gone]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:52 PM GMT
    18. The alleged descendants of Jews who allegedly converted to Christianity or Islam are an ethnic group, but Jews who retained the tribal religion are just a religious group, not an ethnic group entitled to self-determination in their own homeland?!

    AyaTrolLiar> [flees again]

    19. How bizarre that the Jewish descendants of the Jews are pitched as "colonists" while Arabs are promoted as descendants.

    AyaTrolLiar> the former [Jews] are descended mostly from Europeans

    Once again a racial hangup. By this he means that Ashkenazi Jews (a minority in Israel) may descend from 4 "European" (or other!) women that 4 Jews married some 2,000 years ago. That they were and are ethnically Jewish for 2,000 years is lost on this racist idiot. That they aren't Polish or German or Ukranian or Russian is lost, all he can see them as is not Jews but "Europeans", as if that is an ethnic group.

    AyaTrolLiar> [gone]

    AyaTrolLiar> while the latter [Arabs] are descended from ancient Jews

    We've repeatedly seen that the genetic evidence dispels that myth.
    It shows mutual ancestry in the Neolithic era, some 10,500 years ago.
    Precluding that these Arabs descend from Jews in the last 1,300 years.
    (Or even 3,000 years.)

    AyaTrolLiar> [nada]

    AyaTrolLiar> and other Middle Eastern tribes

    Ding ding ding. Arab tribes.

    AyaTrolLiar> The native population married into the Arab tribes.

    But who were they that married the Arab colonists?
    Which group was it who intermarried and was "Arabized"?
    Why don't we know such a group?
    (See also #4 in reference to endogamy.)

    Why weren't they later "Europeanized" by the Crusaders?
    Or Kurdishized by the Ayyubids?
    Or Mamlukized and then Turkeyized?

    We know the groups who weren't: Armenians, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Copts, Druze, Kurds, Jews, Samaritans, etc.
    We know the Palestinian Arabs don't (as a group) descend from Jews or European Byzantines.
    So just who was it who was "Arabized"?

    Consider that first he lies that Arabs have lived there for "4,000" or more years.
    Then he tells us that Arab invaders intermarried some unknown local group which was "Arabized" maybe ~1,000 years ago?

    Note also that because Ashkenazi Jews may descend from 4 maternal ancestors 2,000 years ago who were "European"
    (but no one really knows who they were), he considers that Ashkenazi Jews are "European".
    Some unknown group, he tells us, intermarried Arab colonists on massive levels around 1,000 years ago... but they're not Arabs?!
    See how his beliefs have nothing to do with facts or principles?

    20. Recall also that he admitted that up to 200,000 (of 1.2 million) Arabs in 1947 were immigrants (later switched to recent immigrants and their descendants).

    AyaTrolLiar> It's a BS figure and I exposed it as a BS figure.

    Here's what he said back in Dec. 2010:

    AyaTrolLiar founcer> 100,000 to 200,000 [Arabs]... were either immigrants, or had parents or grandparents who were considered to have immigrated to Palestine "recently".

    21. In this idiot's mind, an Arab from Yemen is perfectly at home in Jerusalem because he's "middle eastern".
    But a Jew from closer in Europe is a foreign colonist because he's a "European".
    You know, as if there are races and they "belong" on their own islands.

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups]

    22. Here, in a nut-shell, you see the difference between the old and new Anti-semitism.
    The old claimed that Jews were "Semites" and didn't "belong" in Europe... go back to Israel.
    The new claims that Jews are "European" and don't "belong" in Israel... go back to Europe.

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups]

    23. Contemplate the mixed marriage. Someone who is half Lebanese and half "European".
    Do such 50/50 genes "belong" in Europe or in the middle east?!
    Maybe neither, they have to go to something like a genetic leper colony?

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups]

    24. What if it's 49/51, does that change everything? Or 25/75? Or 12/88?

    AyaTrolLiar> [won't say]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:54 PM GMT
    ROTFL. The AyaTrolLiar exposition of his own idiocy goes on unabated.

    Italy is about 300,000 sq km, about 11x larger than western Mandate Palestine.
    It's population is around 60 million, again about 12x more than the number of Arabs in "Palestine" & Israel.
    If we compare populations 100 years ago... Italy was around 60x larger.

    The two maps of Italian language I checked show 22 dialects, each covering an average area of around 15,000 sq km.
    Even assuming a linear distribution, based on area (and it's more likely a square), that would be 2 dialects in "Palestine".
    By population, especially 100 years ago... you'd expect a much more uniform linguistic distribution.

    Unless, that is, you had disparate groups with different origins who were endogamous.

    AyaTrolLiar> It has nothing to do with land area

    Of course it does. It's more likely to have pockets, islands, of a dialect distinguished across distance.
    In a smaller area where people interact which each other, language becomes more uniform, not disparate.

    AyaTrolLiar> where the hummus is also different

    It's not uniform in western "Palestine".
    In Haifa, Hummus is more similar to Lebanese Hummus than what you'll get in Abu Gosh outside Jerusalem.

    AyaTrolLiar> [hasn't a clue, but seeks to pile it on]

    Who looked just at dialect? We also looked at cuisine and religion/sect.
    And history and archaeology.

    Again, these were items they brought up... but work against them.

    AyaTrolLiar> South Lebanon is Shi'a, the Golan is Druze, the Sinai a different kind of "Sunni".

    Yet there are Shia and Druze in northern Israel.

    AyaTrolLiar> In the latter and in west Jordan, the population is Bedouin, and has no history of identification with Filastin before 1948.

    Odd then that Nayef Hawatmeh, already in 1938, was born a "Palestinian".
    (I won't repeat the question, just note that he has no explanation, no answer.)

    Odder that he has replaced the concept of Arab Filastin (during the Arab empires 1,000 years ago) with the modern concept of Palestine, the Greek/Latin-European name for the Land of Israel.

    Arab Jund (military district) Filastin included the southern halves of modern day Israel and Jordan.
    It included Amman, but NOT Haifa, Acre/Akko, Nazareth, Tzfat/Safed, Tveria/Tiberius, Jenin, and Beit Shean/Beijan.

    Consider that there are ethnic Germans on the Polish side of the border and vice versa.
    It's not the border that determines the ethnicity of people.

    Yet in "Palestine", they pretend that Palestinian ethnicity is ancient but magically dependent on which side of a 20th century border one was on, and worse, they simultaneously complain that this border was drawn by foreign European powers.

    AyaTrolLiar> The natives knew what Palestine was before the British marked it out

    At the time, the Arabs (not "natives" but many of them immigrants in recent centuries - including the Negev Bedouin) rejected the existence of "Palestine" and "Palestinians" - terms they associated with Jews. They opposed an independent (via Mandate) Palestine, supporting King Feisal in Damascus - saying they were Syrians. When the French deposed him, for the next decades they pursued being part of a Pan Arab state.

    AyaTrolLiar> I never made any claim that Palestinian identity was "ancient"

    Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

    AyaTrolLiar> Yes, the borders were arbitrary

    So how many "Palestinians" ended up in Lebanon or Syria?
    How many Syrians or Lebanese ended up in Mandate Palestine?
    ZERO. How could that be?

    A in "Palestine" is different from B in Egypt.
    B in "Palestine" is different from C in Lebanon.
    C in "Palestine" is different from D in Jordan.
    D in "Palestine" is different from A in Syria.

    AyaTrolLiar> Sorb and Kashubian communities live in Poland but not in Czechia, where there are Moravians. This isn't "snake oil", it's part of what makes Poland distinct from its neighbors.

    Yet those are references to ethnic groups.
    Thus he compares Palestinian nationality to Polish nationality rather than to ethnic groups.
    The conclusion being that "Palestinian Arabs" is (or at least was) not an ethnic group.

    The point above, though, was that it is disingenuous to say that one thing is different from others by selectively focusing on one trait.

    It's like arguing that European were native in the Americas rather than an amalgam of different Europeans because the mix was different than in any mother country. America was different from Ireland because the Spanish in America are different from the Irish. And you can't compare to Spain because Russians. And you can't compare to Britain because there are too many French in America.

    Yet one could just as well compare the Irish in American to those in Ireland, and the French here to French in France, etc.

    So while the Egyptian "Palestinians" were different from Syrians, the Syrian "Palestinians" weren't.
    Nor were the Egyptian "Palestinians" different from Egyptians.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Jun 21, 2017 9:54 PM GMT
    That haplotypes originating tens of thousands of years ago predate the arrival to Arabia of those who became Arabs is irrelevant
    There is nothing "sudden" about genes over TENS OF THOUSANDS of years.
    Long predating any concept of indigeneity (predating people settling in villages).

    AyaTrolLiar> [wups]

    Just wait till the moron finds out that one of the most prevalent haplotypes in Europe (H) EVOLVED in West Asia!

    AyaTrolLiar> The study wasn't talking about evolution, but about ORIGIN

    ROTFL. The "origin" is where they evolved.
    He still doesn't understand, as outlined above, that the ORIGIN of these haplotypes evolved long before Arabs settled in Arabia.

    Or maybe he thinks that Europeans are West Asians?
    (Except, of course, Jews. icon_rolleyes.gif )

    AyaTrolLiar> They cluster much more closely with Cretans, Lebanese and other Mediterranean populations.

    Yes, in a study that didn't compare them to Arabs. Thud!
    Should we be impressed they are closer to Lebanese than to Bushmen?

    So they are closely related to French, Spaniards and Ashkenazi Jews?

    What is he trying to say, that they are 29-38% Arab and more European than Arab?
    So at least 30-40% European? That's already 60-80% Arab & European, not much room left for anything else.
    (Yes, I know, but that's how he does his genetic math.)

    Why would someone pretend to quote a genetic study for the "purely genetic perspective" only to quote its throw-away sentence nod to "history"? Note that he quotes nothing at all from the genetic science (despite his preface of "purely genetic perspective").

    The Nebel genetic study (his source) clearly shows that Palestinian Arabs and Jews share common origin about "~10,500 years ago".
    That emphatically precludes Palestinian Arab descent from Jews some 1,300 years ago.

    AyaTrolLiar> [still trying to fudge the data to fit his model]

    What he actually means is 4 women some 2,000 years ago.

    AyaTrolLiar> Constitute one half to three quarters of Jewish DNA today.
    That's how genetics work.

    Seriously. One can't make this up.
    Female DNA can't exceed 50%.

    Funny, too, how he makes his most egregious errors after such smug statements.
    Who can forget "you don't need a math major" followed by two basic math errors calculating population growth figures. icon_rolleyes.gif

    Genetic data otherwise shows a negligible 0.5% intermarriage rate per generation.

    AyaTrolLiar> problem is there were 100 generations in the past 2,000 years

    ROTFL. It doesn't matter if there were a million generations.
    The rate is PER GENERATION.
    Yes, he really is that mentally and mathematically challenged.

    Ironically, one "DrFishman" introduced the < 0.5% figure yet made the exact same error 8 years ago:

    DF> 0.5% is... 1 out of 100 in every generation. spread that over a hundred generation and you would almost include every jew.

    To his credit, he later retracted that.

    AyaTrolLiar> [disappears]

    AyaTrolLiar> The 2000 Hammer study

    || Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities.

    || the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.

    || Several lines of evidence support the hypothesis that Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors

    || the rate of admixture would be <0.5% per generation

    Remember? My figure he flippantly questioned above is confirmed by his source!

    || The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed here (Tables 2 and 3) supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin.

    Oh, dear. Not only are Jews "Middle Eastern", but they and non-Jewish groups, i.e. "Middle Eastern ARAB populations", share a "common... origin". There's that "cousin" relationship, not these ARAB populations descending from Jews in the last 1,300 years.

    Because of the genetic contribution of 4 unknown women 2,000 years ago all Ashkenazi Jews are ethnically "European"?!
    But some unknown group (assuming it existed) that (according to them) significantly intermixed with Arabs only 1,300 years ago isn't Arab?

    AyaTrolLiar> [still running away]

    Italians are "Mediterranean" but because some study shows Jews close to Italians, he considers Jews "European".
    Yet when Palestinian Arabs are termed "Mediterranean", that proves they are "indigenous" to the Levant?

    AyaTrolLiar> [crawls back under his rock and stays there]
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Feb 12, 2018 3:10 PM GMT
    Tel Aviv Pride 2018 - let's go!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Apr 02, 2018 6:22 AM GMT
    The Best Chef Restaurants In Israel
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    May 29, 2018 6:15 AM GMT
    Only 10 days till Tel Aviv Pride 2018!
  • Suetonius

    Posts: 2566

    May 29, 2018 10:51 PM GMT
    mwolverine saidOnly 10 days till Tel Aviv Pride 2018!

    From what i have seen in the past, the guys who participate in gay pride in Tel Aviv include a lot of hotties. And they are all circumcised, if that's your preference. (I note that the OP originally posted a year ago. He's probably already been there if we were going.)
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Oct 02, 2018 11:57 PM GMT
    Still thinking of a trip to Tel Aviv?
    Here's another event to consider:

    Tel Aviv [Gay] Games
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 04, 2018 12:27 AM GMT
    LOVED Ein Gedi for hiking. Weather should be getting much cooler and tolerable, even in the desert regions, soon. North Israel gets surprisingly chilly, fall-like temperatures in winter. The country's climate and topography are fascinating, with major changes in both over surprisingly short distances. In terms of distances from what feels like one country to another, Israel (one part to another) is to Europe (one country to another) what Europe (one country to another) is to the U.S. (one state to another).

    Wolverine's tourist (and probably other) advice is spot-on.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Oct 04, 2018 12:45 AM GMT
    I hate to politicize a travel thread but a few people so often bring up "stolen Palestinian property" that as a foreign traveler to Israel, who stayed several months and had Israeli and Palestinian friends alike, I'd like to present a perspective other than the proof of historic photos.

    If you're going to steal property, you're going to steal the good stuff. Yet the stunning walled medieval seafront town of Acre (Akko), within Israel proper and just a stone's thrown from Tel Aviv (pun definitely intended), the town with a history of firing rockets into Tel Aviv, remains almost exclusively Arab-owned and occupied. In the mid '80s Tel Aviv struck me as an unfettered Miami urban planning gone awry, whereas Akko was a gem.

    If you're going to steal property, you're going to steal the good stuff. Yet when Israeli forces took the Old City of Jerusalem (specifically "East" Jerusalem within the Ottoman walls) when they were attacked in 1966, they only kept for development themselves the historic Jewish Quarter (comprising far less than a quarter of the land within the walls). The Jewish Quarter was not good real estate; Arabs had built latrines against the Western Wall of the Temple Mount, and before Israel's creation, would pelt (from the Al-Aqsa Mosque grounds yet, which to this day still remain under Palestinian autonomy) garbage on the heads of religious Jewish pilgrims who came merely to pray as close as they could get to the base of the wall. Israelis razed the entire Jewish Quarter, uncovering and recovering ancient archeological sites in the process, and integrated new construction designed to blend in.

    If you're going to steal property, you're not going to leave the best stuff. The Arab Quarter in Jerusalem is amazing, stunning. What did the Israelis do with it? They closed the open sewers and provided modern amenities. I had a Palestinian friend whose family had a shop in the Arab souk (market). They were PRO-Israeli occupation of the Old City because with occupation came PROFIT - not only religious pilgrims of all stripes but tourists, enjoying unheard of access and comforts even as they complained about Israel. The Israelis did not displace them from their beautiful house OR their shop like the Germans did the Jews in the 1930's. The Arabs remained in their stores and homes in the majority of the Old City, and their incomes and quality of life increased markedly, as did their property values. My friend still lived in his amazing home with his parents, as did their grandparents. It was probably worth $1M even in 1985 and who knows the value now.

    If you're going to give back property, you give back the worst stuff. You don't give back Gaza, delivering it a veritable paradise of farms, greenhouses and seafront begging for luxury development, you give back the arid and inhospitable desert of the West Bank. Yet it was Gaza that was given back. Say what you will about the legality of settlement building to maintain a foothold on land acquired in a war by victors in a war who were the party initially attacked, but the value of the land isn't in the land itself - most of Israel proper remains undeveloped given the small population - it's in the need of land as a protective buffer against attack, and the settlements are always built on vacant land. The oftentimes beautifully built settlements, with a vibe more Boca than barbed wire, provide much-needed jobs to the local Palestinian populace, and will likely, inevitably, be traded to Palestinians with the unrealistic expectation of peace in return.

    Everyone seems to know a Palestinian who had some beautiful family home stolen by an Israeli, and to hear them describe it you'd think it was some MGM confection spun for Marlene Dietrich in "The Garden of Allah." The only such home I ever saw was my Palestinian friend's, and he's still in it.
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Dec 24, 2018 7:44 AM GMT
    When visiting Tel Aviv, don't overlook Haifa just an hour up the coast:

    Happy Holidays from Haifa - for 4 religions!!
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    Feb 02, 2019 6:40 AM GMT
    Israel opens new Ramon International Airport named after Columbia Shuttle Astronaut
  • mwolverine

    Posts: 7084

    May 30, 2019 2:28 AM GMT
    Tel Aviv Pride 2019