Internet monitoring

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 4:58 PM GMT
    Sedative said
    Well for example, you get accused of stealing something. And you really did not do it. But then they obtain a subpoena for your records and find out that you've downloaded illegal music or sent a joke about stealing to a friend or once peeked into a KKK page just to see what it looked like.

    First of all this bill allows for law enforcement (LE) to obtain information on what IP address used the computer, beyond that there's a legal requirement to have sufficient probable cause (pc) to convince a judge (court) to obtain additional information related to what you did. If you didn't do anything, chances are they won't have the pc to get anything. As for the other petty things you're describing, do you really think they're going to do anything about those? That's mass hysteria on your part.

    Would they really respect your privacy and leave it alone? Hell no, they'll use it to undermine your character and you'll be left guilty as charged for something you never did. Given that most judges are waaay too old to be up-to-date with electronic stuff, they'll take it at face value.

    It is true that judges are NOT technically saavy, I'll give you that but the protection for you as a citizen is that no matter what medium (electronic or paper), LE must prove to the judge pc for why they want the records. If you did nothing, then why would you be concerned? The pc must relate to the investigation.

    Moreover, when it comes to legality. Do you know that simply burning music files into CD's (like mixtapes in the old days), is a copyright infringement offense? In some cases, downloading it into your ipod is too.

    I'm very aware of copyright laws and I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong on this), case law shows that criminal prosecution of copyright laws has been limited to only those where there is proof that the subject gained financially from the crime (ie: burn and resell). I believe there was a case in the New England area that was overturned because the accused did violate the law however no intent was able to be shown for financial gain. Most law suits are prosecuted civilly by groups like the recording industry, not criminally which is who this bill benefits.

    Don't get me wrong, I too want privacy but as a citizen I also want to provide tools that help get those who violate our trust off the streets. The whole concept (which, no offense, but I feel you and others propagate here) of the government (all levels to include LE) are out to watch your every move is so crazy. Do you really seriously think they have the desire or time to do that? Ask anyone you know who works in either LE or for the courts, there's just no way and I don't feel this bill invades on individual rights as continually stated here.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 5:01 PM GMT
    growingbig said
    And if you share a computer or let someone use it then you could be held responsible for whatever they do.
    Is this something that you've experienced? I'd love to hear the particulars on what happened since although it could be a very integral part of an investigation, it seems that eventually the evidence would either prove it wasn't you or be inconclusive.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 5:10 PM GMT
    Sedative saidAnd P.S. why is 9/11 always dragged into discussions like this? Does it still remain the number one 'fear motivator' for initiating questionable massive government intrusions like this one?
    Sedative, the reason I used 9/11 in my response was because it is the most glaring example of the violation of our privacy in our time. When it comes to organized crime with multiple individuals, it's electronic communications that is utilized (Internet, cell phones, PDAs) and the only way of preventing such things is through obtaining information ahead of time. If you can not follow up on information received, how can you ever prevent such things. In most criminal investigations such as white collar, child pornography, copyright violations, the technology is what proves the crime after the fact. In terrorism, child abduction/exploitation and the like, it's important as a preventative measure.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 5:30 PM GMT
    luvjunkie said
    Dude obviously you're too narrow-sighted for your own good, just like half the parents in America.

    Dude! Please, as a 23 yr old you're going to tell me I'm a narrow-sighted parent? And your experience in parenting or even being an adult would be what? I know exactly what you wrote and using kids to pass laws is NOT an issue if it's going to provide protection to the kids. What means of communications do you think pedophiles use to convince underage troubled kids to come meet them? They are NOT writing them letters my friend, it's the Internet. They go sit at places like Starbucks and utilize wi-fi to troll for underage kids who are mad at their parents and just want to get away.

    There are laws that have been passed to supposedly help police catch pedophiles when in reality they're used to try to catch gay guys trying to hookup with underage kids.

    Re-read what you just posted above, emphasis on this part "gay guys trying to hookup with underage kids", now focus in on the last two words. Hello, hooking up with underage kids, whether you're gay, str8, bi, green, purple or have 3 eyes and 4 dicks is illegal in this country! You need to realize that in this country, the law protects those whom society sees as vulnerable. If you think the age should be lowered or there should be special conditions for gays or for 19 yr olds dating 17 yr olds, then write your local representative and try and change the law. I know there are some gray areas when it comes to the teenage years (as a parent! I've experienced some of these issues!) and depending on where you live, some will not even touch the teenage years for prosecution if it's "age appropriate". But the law stands, it's still illegal.

    Parents in this country need to stop trying to "kiddy-proof" America and take some responsibility! ... Americans need to wake up and tell parents if you want your kids protected then step in and raise them!

    I couldn't agree with you more here luvjunkie and hopefully some day you will experience being a parent and this comment will mean even more to you. Parenting is NOT easy and there are a lot of challenges faced with kids. Most parents do the best they can, given time, resources and what kind of kids they have. You don't mold your kids, and sometimes there are outside reasons for kids taking a less desirable path in life. It happens to even the best parents, but I agree there is some accountability needed to be taken by them.

  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 5:41 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidWhile I don't support really weird folks, I think it's wrong, impractical, and a wasted effort to sift through The Internet
    Unless I've misread this Chucky, this bill isn't about sifting through this data, it's more to do with retaining it for reference if needed. You make some good points in the analogy of porn, pot and whatever but you're assuming that most criminals have your background in technology. I would argue that point. Yes, the ones that do or are serious about not being caught will learn what you're saying and may never get caught but most criminals are anything but smart and they trip themselves because of it. Requiring Starbucks or the library to maintain a file containing IP addresses with dates and times does not seem to me to be an infringement of personal rights. That's just my opinion and I feel that the benefits can out way the loss of privacy. There are many other areas that I would think would be more invasive than this.

    Good discussion and good topic though, and so far, I think a level headed discussion without flaming anyone...whoo whoo! At least I hope I haven't offended anyone. Disclaimer: I apologize if I have.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 5:44 PM GMT
    One more reason to use Linux and simply surf anonymously!
    Ubuntu bitches!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 6:03 PM GMT
    swimbikerun saidOne more reason to use Linux and simply surf anonymously!
    Ubuntu bitches!


    Ubuntu's pretty, but openSUSE hauls some serious balls!
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 6:28 PM GMT
    For those not in the know, ATT is lobbying Congress to become The Internet Policeman offering to perform net intelligence, sifting through traffic in real time for key words, etc.

    These proposed laws aren't just about data mining, data warehousing, and forensics, but also about active snooping by the state into those they don't like, have potential to dislike or fear, without a whiff of due process.

    The far right has used fear tactics, ignorance, and misinformation to put forth orders, and laws, that are clear violations of what used to be considered private communications. Warrant-less taps, pro-active snooping, project Caligia and so on.

    It's always sold as protecting the children, OR protecting from terrorism. Truth be known, terrorists aren't dummies, and taking bobby pins from Grandma at the airport has done nothing but make jobs, and piss off travelers.

    Mark my words, some day we'll all be forced to have embedded RFID.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 6:29 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidFor those not in the know, ATT is lobbying Congress to become The Internet Policeman offering to perform net intelligence, sifting through traffic in real time for key words, etc.

    These proposed laws aren't just about data mining, data warehousing, and forensics, but also about active snooping by the state into those they don't like, have potential to dislike or fear, without a whiff of due process.


    Illegal wire-tapping wrapped in children.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 6:54 PM GMT
    This stuff drives me crazy.

    If they pass it, I'll hafta get a computer guru of a friend to find a way around it. There's just no way I want anyone monitoring that much of what I do. Even though most of it is innocuous and innocent.

    Time to fire off letters to the senators...
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 7:03 PM GMT
    Although I’m not entirely certain, at this point I think this bill is a bad idea.

    1) Judging from the article, the bill places no restrictions on how private actors can use this information. We don’t see internet cafes or other internet providers selling this information now probably because its collection is not cost-justified, but once the government mandates this record-keeping, companies will want to recoup their losses as much as possible. Marketers love this kind of data, witness internet metrics.

    2) The bill evidently simply mandates retaining access data, but doesn’t restrict retaining other information. If you’re already collecting access data, the incremental cost of retaining other user information could be minimal (I’ll defer to flex and chucky), in which case we would expect companies to monitor people’s internet usage independently of the particular computer they use (which is all they can do now).

    3) The economy really doesn’t need to allocate resources to this issue right now. The resources this bill requires us to spend on this issue could have more profitably gone to other spending or investment. Even if you want this money to go to child welfare specifically, there are other ways to benefit children more effectively with that money, such as child food programs or health programs, both of which continue to remain underfunded. “Small-government” Republicans love intrusive government projects when they ostensibly “save the children,” but then they turn around and never express an interest in improving those children’s lives (which is exactly what luvjunkie was complaining about above).

    4) What kind of penalties will my mom suffer for not retaining these data? Any penalty will be completely ridiculous.

    5) As others have mentioned, the law enforcement often has ulterior motives.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 7:12 PM GMT
    CPNI is, by default, collected on your cell phone, unless you opt out. Things like calls you made, time of day, what cell site, how long, business type, GPS coordinates (if turned on and using an app that uses them), etc.

    Here's a screenshot of my two phones (for Flex89/Logan and me)

    vzw_cpni.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 7:58 PM GMT
    chuckystud said

    Mark my words, some day we'll all be forced to have embedded RFID.

    I dunno. I see a world in which, if you want a job, or need to exchange currency or want to travel, you'll need an RFID chip, embedded for "ease of use" or some bullcrap.
    Humans are inherently crafty and tricky though, and this opens up an entire "black market" or backlash culture in which RFID chips are hacked, modded, cloned or simply circumvent barriers.
    Then there would be an entire segment, like the Amish, who build communities that've rejected technology.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 9:44 PM GMT
    Yep.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 22, 2009 10:02 PM GMT
    We'll add genetic engineering to this and it will be just like Gattaca.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 7:37 AM GMT
    chuckystud saidFor those not in the know, ATT is lobbying Congress to become The Internet Policeman offering to perform net intelligence, sifting through traffic in real time for key words, etc.

    These proposed laws aren't just about data mining, data warehousing, and forensics, but also about active snooping by the state into those they don't like, have potential to dislike or fear, without a whiff of due process.

    The far right has used fear tactics, ignorance, and misinformation to put forth orders, and laws, that are clear violations of what used to be considered private communications. Warrant-less taps, pro-active snooping, project Caligia and so on.

    It's always sold as protecting the children, OR protecting from terrorism. Truth be known, terrorists aren't dummies, and taking bobby pins from Grandma at the airport has done nothing but make jobs, and piss off travelers.

    Mark my words, some day we'll all be forced to have embedded RFID.
    You do a great job of spreading fear, bs and misinformation all in one shot. We need more people like you in the country. Gee, maybe they'll stop all of the requirements then you can be happy, terrorist can run rampant, predators can more easily convince kids to have sex with them, mortgage and investment brokers can embezzle more of the public's money, the Enrons of the world can continue to exist and most importantly, you'll be happy and free of anyone watching over you with or without your embedded chip. Oh and you won't need to worry about all that encryption you're using to keep everyone snooping on you from knowing who's RJ profile you're peeking at.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 3:45 PM GMT
    I've worked in information technology for 33 years. I know exactly what's up, how it's being used, and being mis-used, and how the legislation is being sold through misinformation and fear. I'm also aware how this information is being sold to marketing firms as well, and put up the screen shot from Verizon Wireless to make just that point. (I made the screen shot yesterday.)

    Thank you for your kind words. You are exactly right in that folks need to know some of the things that are being done (their privacy trampled on) because many folks are ignorant of the information gathering, mining, and sifting that goes on daily.

    The far right, fear-mongering, puritan, know-it-alls have no business snooping through our every day lives. Corporate America needs not to be sharing our personal information for profit, by sneaking it into the fine print of customer agreements. They almost always sell it to "protect the children" but, facts be known, almost anyone can defeat some of the crap they've passed with some very simple moves. Mostly, it's an establishment that creates more jobs for itself while stepping all over civil liberties.

    I'm very qualified to speak to the matter.

    "Terrorists run rampant?" Yeah, right. You don't think a terrorist group has a technical adviser? Get real. What it amounts to is these ideas are sold on the premise that big brother does this for your own good, when in fact it's big brother perpetuating Big Brother. The ideas prey upon the ignorant, that don't know how technology works, how easy it is to defeat, and the fear...always the children thing. Who decides which sites an internet customer gets to look at? What are the state-approved sites? That's called China. Is a terrorist someone how looks at http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/ ? Of course not. Please provide a list of state-approved internet activity so that we non-terrorists don't visit any non-approved sites.

    The folks doing the fear-mongering, misinformation and preying on the ignorant are the folks with the laws that create jobs, but do little else. Knowing that Johnny has a foot fetish isn't really what the state needs to be doing.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 3:45 PM GMT
    I smell bacon

    bacon-05.jpg
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 7:44 PM GMT
    chuckystud saidI've worked in information technology for 33 years.

    Great, so you're a techie. You and I both know there's a lot that can be done by private folks to protect their data and the bad guys to hide their moves. No argument there.

    ... folks need to know some of the things that are being done (their privacy trampled on) ...

    Perhaps you're referring to the private sector business because it's a crock that the government or law enforcement is trampling rights.

    Corporate America needs not to be sharing our personal information for profit ...

    Agreed! But here in America (not China) we're all greedy bastards who want more of your money and know how to market our products by snooping on you. The bill in question has NOTHING to do with this.

    I'm very qualified to speak to the matter.

    Please enlighten me with your qualifications related to he forum posting which you have veered from. The bill presented does not have to do with selling your Verizon information to anyone. It has to do with maintaining access logs to help law enforcement with the identifying criminal activity. You have a problem with Verizon, call them then.

    The ideas prey upon the ignorant, that don't know how technology works, how easy it is to defeat, and the fear...always the children thing.

    The only ignorance that I'm seeing here is what you're providing. I'm not saying that to be rude, I truly believe that you don't understand at all what this bill is trying to accomplish. It's the very technical issues that you spew forth that requires having this information in order to identify criminal activities. Why is it that you feel that everyone is out to watch your every move? Perhaps Verizon and the likes are interested but law enforcement (back to the bill) could care less about you unless you give them a reason to. If you're not doing something illegal do you really think, seriously, that they are taking IP addresses from Starbucks, getting a warrant based on NOTHING and subpeoning your ISP to determine where you have gone on the Internet? I think you're watching way too much CSI and have that fantasy mixed with reality. I'm qualified to say that based on the fact that I know!

    I appreciate your concerns with privacy and I want as much as the next guy but reality is that if you have crime, certain privacy is lost in order to investigate the crime. I'm not talking about what private sectors do to find out what toilet tissue you buy, that has nothing to do with your original posting. Also, the US is a far cry from China in how they monitor anyone and to even thing that we're headed that way or imply a comparison would indicate how far out in left field you are on this subject.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 7:47 PM GMT
    flex89 saidI smell bacon
    bacon-05.jpg
    The only bacon you're smelling is that of the nonsense that you're helping to promote by suggesting that this bill would somehow trample on the rights of innocent, law abiding citizens.
  • Posted by a hidden member.
    Log in to view his profile

    Feb 23, 2009 7:52 PM GMT
    Admittedly, I only posted this for the first three words.