Why you can't expect HIV+ people to always tell you before having sex

  • metta

    Posts: 54495

    Dec 25, 2018 1:14 AM GMT
    Why you can't expect HIV+ people to always tell you before having sex

    https://www.gaystarnews.com/article/matthew-hodson-hiv-disclosure-sex/#gs.cff1.kFy5ycQ
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    Dec 25, 2018 4:24 PM GMT
    Wow, you are one fucked-up creature. Blood-chilling.
  • bro4bro

    Posts: 3903

    Dec 25, 2018 7:25 PM GMT
    Celebrities living with the virus may face the additional challenge of tabloid exposure but stories of blackmail by a current or former partner, threatening to expose someone’s status to friends or family members, are common.

    These are all the same arguments people used to make about not coming out as gay.

    With one big exception...

    In refusing to reveal your HIV+ status to a sex partner, you're putting his life at risk.

    ...many people who are not living with HIV expect us to tell every sexual partner that we have, irrespective of any risk of transmission. This expectation displays a naivety or callousness to the genuine concerns that accompany any disclosure of HIV status.

    Yes, I'm callous to the "concerns" of anyone who's so unconcerned with my well being that he'll have sex with me without telling me he carries a virus that could lead to a terminal, incurable disease. If I choose to assume the risk, that should be my decision, not his. No matter how fucking "untransmittable" he thinks he is.
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    Dec 26, 2018 2:13 AM GMT
    It is completely irresponsible for an HIV+ infected individual to not disclose their status to a sexual partner. Yes, medications have come a long way and chances of transmission from an undetectable individual are slim, but not impossible. Depending on many factors the only time you know for certain you are 100% undetectable is the day you check your viral load and it is undetectable, between these testing points you cannot be 100% certain you are undetectable. Education is key so that both the HIV- and HIV+ Individuals understand the risks. Guys, think with your brain and not your other head, never trust anyone and always use protection. Medicines have come a long way and it’s true HIV+ folks are living normal healthy lives, if anything they will die of heart disease or diabetes before the HIV has an impact on them, but you will be on a regimine of daily medications, some twice a day for the rest of your life. Educate yourselves! Do your own research, talk to your primary care doctor. For folks infected with HIV, please be responsible, if someone is ignorant and turns you away because you are HIV+, is that someone you would want to be with anyway?
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    Dec 26, 2018 3:46 AM GMT
    No, I never expected them to tell them about themselves, when I was single myself. Because they may not know their status themselves.

    You need to have been recently tested, and even then it's only what you were 3-6 months ago. It takes that long for the poz results to show in blood tests.
  • TeenIdle

    Posts: 25

    Dec 26, 2018 4:36 AM GMT
    Dude, if you're positive you need to tell whoever you're with, that is not okay withholding that information. If you know you're positive, and you want to have sex with someone, you have. To. Tell. Them. If disclosing that is something that's "too personal and sensitive", then maybe you shouldn't just be hooking up with people.
  • Antarktis

    Posts: 426

    Dec 26, 2018 4:54 AM GMT
    Its just as much your responsibility to ask but lying is a different beast. My question is what happened? The reality is a majority dont get tested.
  • DaForgotten1

    Posts: 11

    Dec 27, 2018 9:17 AM GMT
    Im open about my status but I've been abstinent since I found out a couple years ago...its hard to meet ppl that are HIV- that are interested in me given my status so I can understand the need to hide it, not that I agree with it but I can understand...
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    Dec 27, 2018 10:01 AM GMT
    I have to agree with bro4bro - It's NOT OK to be having sex with guys and fail to disclose that you are positive. I'd also agree with antarktis, that if you're negative, it's your responsibility to ask the status of your partner and to take precautions. One ought to assume today, that any new sex partner is positive, and act accordingly. Anyone could have seroconverted just before your encounter, and thus he would not even have known.

    I know a number of guys who have been positive and have been on meds.for a long time and are doing well. Unfortunately, I also know some men who have been on meds.for years, and they are NOT fine, and HAVE hiv health problems, even though they report undetectable viral loads. They may not die of hiv secondary infections, but hiv did some damage. It's not a disease anyone should risk getting, any more than exposure to malaria or drug-resistant gonorrhea .
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    Dec 28, 2018 9:21 AM GMT
    DaForgotten1 saidIm open about my status but I've been abstinent since I found out a couple years ago...its hard to meet ppl that are HIV- that are interested in me given my status so I can understand the need to hide it, not that I agree with it but I can understand...


    I have never let a guys HIV status. be a factor in determining if I would hook up or date him. I have been that way since very early on after coming out at age 22yrs old. I do however believe that HIV Positive men should strive to disclose their status, however provided that they are using condoms for anal sex, regardless of being top or bottom and regardless of their viral load, with those conditions I am comfortable that a HIV Positive person choosing not to disclose.

    Unfortunately, as DaForgotten mentions, many HIV Negative men outright refuse any consideration of a HIV Positive person, once they disclose their status. While it is each individuals right, that approach is counter productive as it creates incentive for Positive men to not disclose. I do have an issue with the behavior of a sizable minority of Positive men, who have interpreted the science of UVL, as meaning that condomless sex is the default option even with men who they are hooking up with for first time.

    There are a all too many of them, who are antagonistic to any suggestion of condom use, for those who wish to use them. Worse still, some of these men interpret a HIV Negative mans decision to treat all new hook ups as equally potential sources of infection, as STIGMATISING. The truth is that it is actually self stigmatising, because it re-enforces the negative stereotypes. I feel sorry for the many who do not see things that way and understand that even though they may not like condoms a person who has no proof of status has every right to be suspicious.

    In truth it is not entirely the fault of the HIV Negative or Positive person, though both need to improve how they handle these situations. The fault lies with the educators who have decided that the only way to encourage HIV Positive men onto treatment is to create the perception that by doing so they can then have raw sex with anyone. Worse still the statement often used that 'it is safer to hook up raw with someone who says they are HIV + with a UVL than a person who says they are HIV Negative'. That statement is very wrong and dangerous, all the studies on UVL where on Couples, not hook ups and be saying you are UVL or negative does not make it so nor mean that people should automatically trust that information

    Its about time to abandon the AIDS council agency model of community education in favor of a holistic Agency model which focuses as much on STI's as they do on HIV meaning that statements from various AIDS councils that justify increasing STI infections coming from Prep users abandonment of condoms being OK coz HIV rates are down somewhat
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    Dec 28, 2018 9:09 PM GMT
    The responsibility lies with the person infected with the HIV Virus, end of debate.
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    Dec 29, 2018 1:48 PM GMT
    two_meninlove saidThe responsibility lies with the person infected with the HIV Virus, end of debate.


    I understand why you feel that way, I'm a HIV Negative guy myself, it's an automatic reaction to protect yourself. Problem is though that in reality is that of all the guys who are Positive, some may not know, some may know and choose not to disclose out of rejection fear, others may not disclose because they have been getting the message from HIV AIDS treatment, prevention and education organisations telling them that if they reach a UVL (viral suppression), that they aren't infectious so they may take the view that they don't need to. Problem is of course, with the first two, leaving it up to them means for some guys trusting their silence/denial as meaning they are negative, so they think BB is ok, the third one, while they maybe still have viral suppression, you can't be certain they are and rebounds can make them highly infectious in as little as two weeks. Happy to supply the source of that info, it applies to those guys who don't adhere to their meds or have 'drug holidays' meaning their UVL U=U claims are only relevent to the period prior to that. If everyone assumes the guy they don't know is a risk of STI's and HIV and take their own measures, then the HIV status won't be a factor. It's been my strategy for a long time and I am still HIV Negative and will remain that way because I do my best to look after my own sexual health, no matter how hot or convincing he may be. To each their own way of doing things but I would suggest doing the same for everyone
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    Jan 12, 2019 7:42 AM GMT
    Has anyone got any Evidence what so ever that it is possible to transmit HIV when viral load is supressed?
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    Jan 12, 2019 10:23 PM GMT
    Ubeaut saidHas anyone got any Evidence what so ever that it is possible to transmit HIV when viral load is supressed?


    I haven't seen anyone here posting that it can. I have seen people been skeptical of taking some guys word for it, especially if BB is on the menu. Big shame that the U=U message got hijacked by the 'BB lobby' by making the nonsensical statement that a guy who is going to BB is safer with a guy saying he is POZ UVL than a guy who says he is HIV Negative. It basically wiped out trust and is not based on fact. A verified UVL that is current, that can be claimed, but everyone knows guys will say whatever they think they need to say to get sex so in actual fact, both are as safe or dangerous as the other in the absence of current proof.

    PS I hope you don't try to defend the statement and if you do, try to do it without the overused BUZZ word Stigma. You do seem much more of an intelligent independent thinker and able to understand that all the studies where on couples not on randoms who have little to no knowledge of each others real sexual health status, which is much more possible for couples of course
  • barefootlover

    Posts: 903

    Jan 13, 2019 11:27 AM GMT
    Art_Deco saidNo, I never expected them to tell them about themselves, when I was single myself. Because they may not know their status themselves.

    You need to have been recently tested, and even then it's only what you were 3-6 months ago. It takes that long for the poz results to show in blood tests.


    It's only 1 month now. If you haven't had any other sex within the last month, an hiv test would be accurate of your current status.
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    Jan 13, 2019 1:10 PM GMT
    barefootlover said
    Art_Deco saidNo, I never expected them to tell them about themselves, when I was single myself. Because they may not know their status themselves.

    You need to have been recently tested, and even then it's only what you were 3-6 months ago. It takes that long for the poz results to show in blood tests.

    It's only 1 month now. If you haven't had any other sex within the last month, an hiv test would be accurate of your current status.

    False, for the most common of HIV tests done in the US. Which check for the presence of antibodies to HIV. A 3-week antibody reaction time after HIV exposure is the most optimistic, and least observed.

    More common slower antibody development response times are in the 3 to 6 month range, that vary by individual. Which timeline do you want to bet on, when your future health, and perhaps your life, are on the line?

    And how do you know if you've bet correctly or not? Because you WANT to believe that result? Not how medical science works.

    BTW, there is the NAAT method, for nucleic acid amplification testing. It detects the HIV virus directly, rather than indirectly through antibodies, avoiding the resultant time delay. Results take 7-10 days, since the virus still requires time to spread in sufficient detectable numbers. But drawbacks include more frequent false positives. As well as very high cost, and limited availability in many US locales.

    And incidentally, a peak viral load (viremia) does occur at about 3 weeks. That means the virus is present, making the person contagious to others; it does not mean the antibody markers can yet be reliably detected. The ELISA testing method, the most common basis for rapid testing in the US, can begin to detect at 3 weeks of HIV exposure, but this is the earliest threshold, and will give false negatives. This is due to some individuals failing to produce sufficient antibodies for detection during that early infection stage.
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    Jan 13, 2019 2:31 PM GMT
    My late partner was HIV Poz. He told me on the phone before we ever met. Meaning I knew I had a decision to make.

    We were already attracted to each other, also corresponding online, but hadn't met in person yet. This obviously was a serious matter for me. My ultimate decision to proceed was based on 3 things: 1) My belief I understood what safe sex is and could remain Neg with him; 2) My growing affection for him; 3) My expectation that if I did screw up and become Poz, at age 52 I had a reasonable chance of not appreciably shortening my lifespan, although certainly be complicating it medically.

    We did meet and did become partners. Had sex, even with me as the bottom, the most risky. But my worse fears were realized when not 2 years after we got together he suddently contracted a fatal AIDS-related opportunistic disease, called PML. He only lasted 6 weeks.

    Today I remain negative. My current partner of 12 years, whom I like to call my husband now, is also negative. We sit together for all our lab results and doctor visits, told we're both Neg and STD-free.

    Some guys argue that action suggests we don't trust each other. Whereas to us, it's a sign how much we DO trust the other. And also to know other things about our health together, to make us better informed regarding each other's needs. Especially with diet.
  • IgnatiusReill...

    Posts: 182

    May 13, 2019 12:08 AM GMT
    RugbyStud saidIt is completely irresponsible for an HIV+ infected individual to not disclose their status to a sexual partner. Yes, medications have come a long way and chances of transmission from an undetectable individual are slim, but not impossible. Depending on many factors the only time you know for certain you are 100% undetectable is the day you check your viral load and it is undetectable, between these testing points you cannot be 100% certain you are undetectable. Education is key so that both the HIV- and HIV+ Individuals understand the risks. Guys, think with your brain and not your other head, never trust anyone and always use protection. Medicines have come a long way and it’s true HIV+ folks are living normal healthy lives, if anything they will die of heart disease or diabetes before the HIV has an impact on them, but you will be on a regimine of daily medications, some twice a day for the rest of your life. Educate yourselves! Do your own research, talk to your primary care doctor. For folks infected with HIV, please be responsible, if someone is ignorant and turns you away because you are HIV+, is that someone you would want to be with anyway?


    Amen, RugbyStud!!!
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    May 13, 2019 10:33 PM GMT
    Haven't we had at this point definite proof of U=U? It's safer to have sex with someone who's positive and undetectable than with someone of unknown status.
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    May 14, 2019 11:47 AM GMT
    cyborg said
    Haven't we had at this point definite proof of U=U? It's safer to have sex with someone who's positive and undetectable than with someone of unknown status.

    But how are you certain someone is undetectable? Because he tells you? That’s no better than believing someone who tells you they’re negative, or who has an unknown status. Which puts us back to square 1.
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    May 14, 2019 10:05 PM GMT
    ^
    If we are going to assume everyone is potentially lying, what is the value of wanting someone to provide this information? Might as well never ask.
  • wild_sky360

    Posts: 4082

    May 16, 2019 9:32 PM GMT
    cyborg saidHaven't we had at this point definite proof of U=U? It's safer to have sex with someone who's positive and undetectable than with someone of unknown status.


    ------

    I'd say undetectable is safer, and if you're playing safe, it doesn't matter.

    But don't be surprised by a negative reaction if you decide to tell a guy you're undetectable..after sex. Opinions vary widely and a feeling of betrayal is hard to shake, even if it's unwarranted.

    I had to talk a friend out of an impulsive reaction when a guy he really liked did that to him. There was no breeding involved. They had a makeout and swapped head. Isn't that the gay handshake?
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    May 30, 2019 1:41 AM GMT
    Art_Deco said
    cyborg said
    Haven't we had at this point definite proof of U=U? It's safer to have sex with someone who's positive and undetectable than with someone of unknown status.

    But how are you certain someone is undetectable? Because he tells you? That’s no better than believing someone who tells you they’re negative, or who has an unknown status. Which puts us back to square 1.


    That's exactly the route of this issue, no one should doubt the science, but relying on the word of someone no matter what they say is playing 'Russian roulette'.

    It's so obvious I can't understand why ridiculous hypothetical statements such as someone saying they are POZ Undetectable being safer than someone saying they are HIV negative if that answer is intended to be relied on to prevent HIV transmission.

    There are no, zero studies which involve casual partners and hook ups, only LTR partners who have the opportunity to verify that their partner is actually Undetectable at the time a sexual encounter occurs.

    Why is this subtle but important difference not understood, worse still denied by AIDS council's and not explained to HIV Positive people when they start treatment.

    Trust begins with honest disclosure, acceptance of your partners right to determine his own protection method, not blind trust in the word of someone who says they are virally surpressed. In my opinion, UVL and Neg are the same until proven that the claimed status is actually current

    Trust the science, but don't blindly trust the person, humans make mistakes accidentally and occasionally deliberately
  • jocked_and_lo...

    Posts: 4895

    May 30, 2019 4:13 AM GMT
    cyborg said^
    If we are going to assume everyone is potentially lying, what is the value of wanting someone to provide this information? Might as well never ask.


    The most cynical of men are that way for a reason.

    On a somewhat related note, we're to believe that after multiple wives and producing children that one day out of the blue and well into his late forties the Fart_Echoes simply woke up one day and came to the innocent conclusion that he was gay. But up until that point he just simply never knew it.

    When you're capable of perpetuating lies for decades it's only logical to assume everyone else is capable of the very same lack of integrity.
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    May 31, 2019 7:11 AM GMT
    Sydneyrugbyjock73 said
    Art_Deco said
    cyborg said
    Haven't we had at this point definite proof of U=U? It's safer to have sex with someone who's positive and undetectable than with someone of unknown status.

    But how are you certain someone is undetectable? Because he tells you? That’s no better than believing someone who tells you they’re negative, or who has an unknown status. Which puts us back to square 1.


    That's exactly the route of this issue, no one should doubt the science, but relying on the word of someone no matter what they say is playing 'Russian roulette'.

    It's so obvious I can't understand why ridiculous hypothetical statements such as someone saying they are POZ Undetectable being safer than someone saying they are HIV negative if that answer is intended to be relied on to prevent HIV transmission.

    There are no, zero studies which involve casual partners and hookups, only LTR partners who have the opportunity to verify that their partner is actually Undetectable at the time a sexual encounter occurs.

    Why is this subtle but important difference not understood, worse still denied by AIDS council's and not explained to HIV Positive people when they start treatment.

    Trust begins with honest disclosure, acceptance of your partners right to determine his own protection method, not blind trust in the word of someone who says they are virally suppressed. In my opinion, UVL and Neg are the same until proven that the claimed status is actually current

    Trust the science, but don't blindly trust the person, humans make mistakes accidentally and occasionally deliberately


    I am Neg, I serosort my men, I prefer to play with HIV Undetectable .. Look, I don't have to convince you or try and change your opinion, BUT I have the right to make the choice of who i sleep with. Neg guys don't know they are poz until its too late, or who were like me, living in fear.

    An Hiv Undetectable will not lie about his status, and even if he has skipped a day or become complacent with his tablets, I am on Prep.

    Negative guys are the time bombs they are the dangerous ones, and I can so understand why HIV Undetectable men don't want to play with neg, guys.

    This Is my back Story, It can be found on the website "My Prep Experience" I wrote this more to myself, so I could see what thoughts were festering in my head and I could start to understand and learn, and yes, not to judge and be a bitch.

    The first time I met him was at an orgy. - By Paul Watson - This is my story

    It wasn’t one of those romantic moments from Cosmopolitan magazine. Nor was it one of those love story moments that make you feel like a sociopath for not ever having been in one of those hazy coffee shop situations …. but, we recognized each other.

    He was naked, sweat glistening on his body, and when he got up, his cock seemed to be the one that wanted to shake hands.


    My clothes were off and we were soon in a tangle of arms and legs. In amongst the temptations, salty kisses and heaving men - it was his eyes that I sought out. It was his hand that held mine in the throes of passion. It was his warm hand that touched and caressed me as I lay there thinking about an escape. But I digress, a bit of background information may be required to follow the thread of this story.

    I am not a handsome devil or a cherub-faced guy. I am just your normal, run-of-the-mill, everyday man. But that’s what makes me so dangerous. I smell like a man, I look like a man, I have grey streaks in my beard and tiny laugh lines at the outer corners of my eyes. I have a wry smile and a naughty glint in my eyes. I can track a smile from way across a room and am very aware of any mans’ lingering gaze on my crotch. Through many years of practice, my success rate is pretty high – although I don’t always get the guy.

    In banks, shopping malls, gyms, out jogging, I spot them - looking. I always make the first move. A greeting, a friendly “Hello” and, once I have the slight confirmation of mutual “lust”, I swiftly move in for the kill. Like a slathering and ravenous wolf that hunts alone, I have taken singles, couples and sometimes groups.

    My taste in men is real men! They range from hairy-backed bear-like men to smooth-chested accountants to beer-bellied and chain-smoking alcoholics. Married men, straight men, gay men - I don’t discriminate. Sometimes I string them along if the sex is good but, often, it’s a once off mutual understanding of lust and release. To have sex with a man is an all-encompassing and overpowering urge. An urge that is so great that it overshadows all else and, like a scalding knife that cuts into your brain, short-circuiting all thoughts other than the one goal – to get one thing. SEX!

    "This isn’t me," I hear you cry, "I do not have urges like that."

    I cannot relate. Being gay in the 1980s until the present day has had some very interesting parallels. Where once I was ashamed and hid my sexuality for fear of rejection. I now find that, even though I am an openly gay man, I still have a largely hidden private life.

    In my twenties, my boyfriend at that time introduced me to a man who would sit at the end of the local gay bar with a cigarette in one hand and glass of wine in the other who would deliver a string of witty comeback remarks that had us in stitches. A few short months later we stood beside his bed in the local hospice saying our goodbyes to him. I remember his pleading eyes in a sunken face - betrayed by the disease that ravaged his body. This was a harsh early lesson learned regarding the realities of the AIDS generation and the consequences of erratic condom use. At the time, my own condom use was approximately 50%. People don’t always think in the heat of passion, they just dive on in and deal with consequences later.

    Show me a man that has a 100% condom usage rate, and I will show you a politician in the making.

    This experience certainly scared me enough to use a condom or to at least, limit myself to one partner at a time for a while. Like most victims of the AIDS epidemic, names and faces would just fade like some melting iceberg. Here today, gone tomorrow - and the uncaring world and life go on.

    The truth is - the world NEVER stops.

    In this life, no one gets out alive … No-one.

    It was after I had sex with Mr O on a number of occasions that he advised me of his HIV status. He was HIV positive. He told me as we lay together, holding on to each other as if the world were disappearing beneath our feet. I could feel him clinging on to me - almost expecting me to jump off the bed and run hysterically down the street. Inside I was screaming - I wanted to scream at him. I wanted to cry, and plead - but I was surprised by my own actions.

    I kissed him instead. Mr O, with his placid nature and his understanding eyes, cradled me in his arms as if protecting me from a terrifying storm. There was something even stronger than the tempest inside of me, HIV/AIDS, death … These things were part of him, a huge part. These things ruled his life and had done so for years. Would they start to rule mine as well?

    After he told me, I was filled with mixed emotions. I wanted to run, I wanted to get away. It was as if I had been burnt by a flame. Things I’d read in magazines, information spread by the media and things that friends and acquaintances had said swirled around in my head. I wished them gone - this HIV thing had become too real. Even language and means of communication has changed, we whisper in each others’ ears “Are you clean?”. These words contain so much negative stigma that this disease has spread. We say it as though someone with HIV is dirty, an unclean and unholy thing.

    When I left him - I ran. I ran to be tested.

    It had been three years since my last test and I’d liaised with about 150 men du