Jesus' Backstory Changes

  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Dec 12, 2019 11:21 PM GMT
    Dr. Ehrman,
    Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, in their book, The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts (2002) concluded the traditional archaeology of the Davidic and Solomonic period is wrong. Therefore, the Biblical David and Solomon cannot be historically accurate.

    Furthermore, the Saul-David-Solomon story is less than historically accurate and therefore they must be relegated to characters of historical fiction because the historically accurate Saul is Labayu, Labaya who was in correspondence with Akhen-aten, centuries earlier (Amarna Letters, discovered 1887). Because David must be connected to Saul, David is moved back from approximately 910 BCE to 1340 BCE or David did not succeed Saul, allowing Solomon and David to remain in the 910 - 880 BCE time frame.

    This weakens the historical accuracy of Jesus who was claimed to have been a descendant of King David. David is not firmly established in history at 910 BCE because Saul-Labayu/a wrote to Akhen-aten and correspondence is found in the Amarna Letters.

    Question #1: Not only from a genealogical perspective but from a broader historical perspective, the things that David and Solomon supposedly did could not have been done 300+ years earlier. David and Solomon of the 1300s BCE must have different biographies than the David and Solomon of the 910 - 880 BCE time frame?
    Question #2: That the bold line between David and Jesus has become a dotted line or even a broken line changes Jesus' backstory, yes?
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    Dec 12, 2019 11:29 PM GMT
    What establishes Saul with the Labayu of the Amarna letters? You did not include that firm connection being established by Biblical and Egyptian scholars in your post.
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    Dec 13, 2019 4:34 AM GMT
    The bible is full of inaccuracies, well as plagerized stories from other cultures within it's timeline. I remember when PBS accidently prove that the evidence of "noah's ark" was false and rebuilt on the mountian, well as a Babylonian/Sumerian story of a great flood. They actually showed how to build a boat using the exact materials native to the supposed location of noah's home, following historical instructions entirely, and oddly enough the boat sank into the nearby river.

    Another set of stories that claim the bible false, Egyptian, why no evidence of a "joseph" of "moses" within or before the Ramses dynesty? the great flood happend before Ramses, so you can't say that washed it away then.
  • roadbikeRob

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    Dec 15, 2019 7:51 PM GMT
    Wendigo9 saidThe bible is full of inaccuracies, well as plagerized stories from other cultures within it's timeline. I remember when PBS accidently prove that the evidence of "noah's ark" was false and rebuilt on the mountian, well as a Babylonian/Sumerian story of a great flood. They actually showed how to build a boat using the exact materials native to the supposed location of noah's home, following historical instructions entirely, and oddly enough the boat sank into the nearby river.

    Another set of stories that claim the bible false, Egyptian, why no evidence of a "joseph" of "moses" within or before the Ramses dynesty? the great flood happend before Ramses, so you can't say that washed it away then.
    This is why I consider the Bible and all other holy books nothing more than a giant collection of ancient fairy tales. This is why I have slowly but surely drifted towards atheism which is true freedom.
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    Dec 16, 2019 2:26 PM GMT
    Wendigo9 saidThe bible is full of inaccuracies, well as plagerized stories from other cultures within it's timeline. I remember when PBS accidently prove that the evidence of "noah's ark" was false and rebuilt on the mountian, well as a Babylonian/Sumerian story of a great flood. They actually showed how to build a boat using the exact materials native to the supposed location of noah's home, following historical instructions entirely, and oddly enough the boat sank into the nearby river.

    Another set of stories that claim the bible false, Egyptian, why no evidence of a "joseph" of "moses" within or before the Ramses dynesty? the great flood happend before Ramses, so you can't say that washed it away then.

    PBS disproved the Biblical account of Noah and the Flood? How about at least a tiny scrap of documentation for this earth-shaking "news"? Most of the world didn't "get the memo."
    God directed Noah to build the ark of "gopher wood" (Genesis). No one knows for sure what "gopher wood" is today. It may no longer exist, due to extinction.
    The geography of the world before the great flood may be nothing like what exists today. So how could PBS know where Noah lived? It is arguably only fanciful speculation.
    Do anti-Bible-bigots actually read the Bible, and the wealth of supporting documentation which convinces most informed men that the Bible IS the Word of God, before playing the anti-Bible bigot game?
    For at least two thousand years people have tried to discredit the Bible. Almost no one remembers them. But the Bible remains the most popular book, and the only self-authenticating book, ever written.
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    Dec 16, 2019 2:45 PM GMT
    roadbikeRob said
    Wendigo9 saidThe bible is full of inaccuracies, well as plagerized stories from other cultures within it's timeline. I remember when PBS accidently prove that the evidence of "noah's ark" was false and rebuilt on the mountian, well as a Babylonian/Sumerian story of a great flood. They actually showed how to build a boat using the exact materials native to the supposed location of noah's home, following historical instructions entirely, and oddly enough the boat sank into the nearby river.

    Another set of stories that claim the bible false, Egyptian, why no evidence of a "joseph" of "moses" within or before the Ramses dynesty? the great flood happend before Ramses, so you can't say that washed it away then.
    This is why I consider the Bible and all other holy books nothing more than a giant collection of ancient fairy tales. This is why I have slowly but surely drifted towards atheism which is true freedom.

    "Nothing created Everything" is "freedom" from sanity.
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    Dec 16, 2019 10:27 PM GMT
    Bart
    None of that has any bearing on the historicity of Jesus or of anything he said or did (issues to be resolved on other grounds)

    Steefen
    Six Degrees of Separation (film)
    The plot of the film was inspired by the real-life story of a con man and robber who convinced a number of people in the 1980s that he was the son of actor Sidney Poitier.

    Given two people, one who traces his family tree back, along a string of real human beings vs one who traces his family tree back to a character of historical fiction, the former has a better record of descent / record of ancestry than the latter. The latter is somewhat fraudulent, misrepresenting his record of descent. This does have bearing on the authenticity of Jesus.

    This is important New Testament Criticism.

    Let's look at some verses relevant to Jesus as Son of David:

    Mt 1: 1
    Mt 12: 23
    Mt 15: 22
    Mt 21: 9 where Jesus is a Solomon figure as Son of David to be crowned king
    Mk 10: 48
    Mk 12: 35
    Jn 7: 42
    Romans 1: 3
    2 Timothy 2: 8
    Revelation 5: 5
    https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Jesus-As-Son-Of-David

    Let's say the Biblical Jesus was a descendant of a 10th Century BCE northern Pharaoh (whose name means My star [not David's Star] rises in my city [not David's city] ) instead of a descendant of a 10th Century BCE King David, Jesus' theological and biological anchor in pedigree would be disqualifying.

    Sure we can say, the Pharisees, the common people, the authors of Mt, Mk, Jn, 2 Timothy, and Revelation were all mistaken, nevertheless, the historical Jesuses: 1) the Woe-Saying Jesus, 2) Jesus of Gamala/Galilee with his mariners who fought Vespasian and Titus at the Battle of Galilee; and the Biblical Jesus all still existed.

    10 verses in the New Testament have lost some if not all credibility with David being a character of historical fiction, or worse, a 10th Century pharaoh who would know, via amduats, something about the valley of the shadow of death, comforted by thy rod and thy staff [any visit to a museum with an Egyptian wing would show the flail and crook symbol of resurrection, iconography of Osiris, Lord of the Resurrection].
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    Dec 16, 2019 10:32 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidWhat establishes Saul with the Labayu of the Amarna letters? You did not include that firm connection being established by Biblical and Egyptian scholars in your post.


    Astrologer
    The Amarna Letters contain a character, Labayu who fits the life of Saul. (See the chapter, “Was Labayu King Saul?” in the 2003 book The Seventy Great Mysteries of Ancient Egypt, Bill Manley, Editor. Also see Lecture 4: “Legendary Kings and Chronicles” in the 2015 DVD set, The David Rohl Lectures.)
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    Dec 17, 2019 4:20 AM GMT
    jockjoy said
    Wendigo9 saidThe bible is full of inaccuracies, well as plagerized stories from other cultures within it's timeline. I remember when PBS accidently prove that the evidence of "noah's ark" was false and rebuilt on the mountian, well as a Babylonian/Sumerian story of a great flood. They actually showed how to build a boat using the exact materials native to the supposed location of noah's home, following historical instructions entirely, and oddly enough the boat sank into the nearby river.

    Another set of stories that claim the bible false, Egyptian, why no evidence of a "joseph" of "moses" within or before the Ramses dynesty? the great flood happend before Ramses, so you can't say that washed it away then.

    PBS disproved the Biblical account of Noah and the Flood? How about at least a tiny scrap of documentation for this earth-shaking "news"? Most of the world didn't "get the memo."
    God directed Noah to build the ark of "gopher wood" (Genesis). No one knows for sure what "gopher wood" is today. It may no longer exist, due to extinction.
    The geography of the world before the great flood may be nothing like what exists today. So how could PBS know where Noah lived? It is arguably only fanciful speculation.
    Do anti-Bible-bigots actually read the Bible, and the wealth of supporting documentation which convinces most informed men that the Bible IS the Word of God, before playing the anti-Bible bigot game?
    For at least two thousand years people have tried to discredit the Bible. Almost no one remembers them. But the Bible remains the most popular book, and the only self-authenticating book, ever written.


    Correction, It was PBS "Nova" that did the scientific research on the bible, and asks questions neutrally before and during the recorded feature, as seen here:

    https://www.pbs.org/video/nova-secrets-noahs-ark/

    Unless you think all science is "fake news", science did create the computer you're typing on right now, your "god" didn't, nor influence the design and how to do it.
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    Dec 17, 2019 2:46 PM GMT
    Art_Deco saidWhat establishes Saul with the Labayu of the Amarna letters? You did not include that firm connection being established by Biblical and Egyptian scholars in your post.


    Astrologer
    The Amarna Letters contain a character, Labayu who fits the life of Saul. (See the chapter, “Was Labayu King Saul?” in the 2003 book The Seventy Great Mysteries of Ancient Egypt, Bill Manley, Editor. Also see Lecture 4: “Legendary Kings and Chronicles” in the 2015 DVD set, The David Rohl Lectures.)

    Part 2

    In the Amarna Letters, the city-state rulers of Palestine write to Akhen-aten because the Habiru are terrorizing the city-states.

    Habiru (Habiru / Hapiru / 'Apiru) is a term used in 2nd-millennium BCE texts throughout the Fertile Crescent for people variously described as rebels, outlaws, raiders, mercenaries, bowmen, servants, slaves, and laborers. 'Apiru had no common ethnic affiliations and no common language...

    The biblical word "Hebrew", like Habiru, denotes a social category, not an ethnic group.

    - Wikipedia entry for Habiru


    The el-Amarna Letters Collection consists of 385 tablets. Eighty percent of them are from the city-state rulers of Canaan and Syria dealing with a major revolt by the Habiru rebels.

    Professor Oded Tammuz, faculty member of Ben Gurion University of the Negev, Bible Archaeology and the Ancient Near East, has been quoted as saying:

    “It is quite possible that the life and times of the historical figure of Labaya – the Habiru leader from the Amarna Period – formed the basis for the biblical tradition of King Saul and the successful Hebrew revolt against Philistine oppression which occupies much of the first book of Samuel.”

    Professor Finkelstein has been quoted commenting on Labaya and Saul:

    "I see a great deal of similarity between Shechem under Labaya and his sons in the 14th century and the Saul territorial entity in the 10th century BCE."

    (Shechem, also spelled Sichem, was a Canaanite city mentioned in the Amarna letters, and is mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as an Israelite city of the tribe of Manasseh and the first capital of the Kingdom of Israel.)

    In Essays on Ancient Israel in its Near Eastern Context where Finkelstein is one of four editors, one finds that both Labaya/u and Saul:

    1) expanded from their highland hubs to the Gilead, east of the Jordan,
    2) threatened cities in the Jezreel Valley,
    3) established a large territorial entity in the highlands, and
    4) seem to have attempted to expand into the lowlands but failed to do so.

    = = =

    Rohl says Labaya and his sons did not rule from Shechem. Labayu gave land around Shechem to the Habiru because although he ruled over Shechem, his capital was elsewhere.

    The reference to Shechem in the Amarna Letters appears at Amarna Letter EA 289: 18-24 written by Abdi-Heba of Jerusalem who asks, “Are we to act like Labaya when he was giving the land of Shechem to the Habiru?”

    = = =

    Labaya’s Kingdom (it is the same as Saul’s kingdom):

    The Central Hill Country excluding the Jebus (around Jerusalem)

    The Hills of Galilee

    The Jordan Valley

    Gilead in Transjordan

    He did not control the lowland territories of the Jezreel, sharon Plain or Coastal Plain of Philstia

    = = =

    Labaya = The Lion Man or The Lion of Ya (Yahweh)

    = = =

    What the Bible does not tell us is that Saul (Labaya) wrote to Akhen-aten ! ! !

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    Dec 17, 2019 2:46 PM GMT
    Labaya Mentioned in the Hebrew Bible

    Psalm 57: 4

    David: I lie surrounded by mighty lions (Heb labaim), greedy for human prey, their teeth are spears and arrows, their tongues are a sharp sword.

    The Labaim would certainly be an appropriate name for the royal bodyguards of King Labaya.

    = = =

    King Labaya and His Son and Habiru Compared to King Saul and Jonathan and David

    Amarna Letter 254 from King Labaya to Pharaoh Akhen-aten:

    Moreover, the king wrote about my son. I did not know that my son was consorting with the Habiru. I herewith hand him over to Addaya (the Egyptian commissioner).

    I Samuel 20: 30-31

    “Son of a rebellious slut! Do I not know that you side with the son of Jesse (i.e. David) to your own shame and your mother’s dishonour? As long as the son of Jesse lives on Earth, neither you nor your royal rights are secure.”

    = =

    The Philistines fight against Saul but David does not fight as a mercenary against Saul in the battle where Saul is killed.

    Reporting the Death of Labaya
    Amarna Letter 366 from Shuwardata to Pharaoh Akhen-aten

    Let the king, my lord, be informed that the Habiru who was raised up against the lands;
    the god of the king, my lord, delivered him to me, and I (king of Gath) have smitten him.

    Rohl says the king of Gath had hired David as a mercenary.

    = = =

    Saul and Jonathan are killed but Saul had a surviving son named Ishbaal (Man of Baal in Hebrew language).

    There is an Amarna Letter (256) from the surviving son of Labaya after his father and brother were killed.
    His name was Mutbaal (Man of Baal in Canaanite language).

    Protestations of Innocence
    Amarna Letter 256

    How can it be said in your presence:

    Mutbaal had fled. He has hidden Ayab?

    As the king lives, I swear Ayab is not in Pella.

    He has been in the field on campaign for two months.

    Ask Benenima.

    Ask Dadua.

    Ask Yishuya.

    Examination of Names

    Mutbaal is Man of Baal is Ishbaal

    Ayab is Ya is the Father is Joab

    Benenima is Son of the Gods is probably Baanah

    Yishuya is Ya Saves is Jesse

    Dadua is The Beloved is David.


    * * * *

    So, did the redactors of the Hebrew Bible move the Saul-Philistines episode forward in time to (1010 – 970 BCE) to link to David?

    We cannot really say that because Shishak has been identified as Ramesses the Great (1304 BCE to 1213 BCE). Before, Shishak was understood to have lived 926 BCE.

    Again, this is where Rohl makes the royal Chronology of the Hebrews difficult. The chronology of the United Kingdom and the separate kingdoms of Judah and Israel also must move, let’s say 1200 BCE minus 926 BCE = 274 years.

    * * * *

    pick up at 50:55 of 57:50
  • Posted by a hidden member.
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    Jun 16, 2020 8:29 PM GMT
    Coimbra1982
    The Bible gives us four accounts of Christ’s life. Each records a unique perspective of the most significant event in history—the crucifixion and resurrection.

    Steefen
    The biblical Jesus is not one unique, biological, historical person: he is a composite figure of historical fiction.
    The crucifixion and resurrection of this composite figure of historical fiction has no significant events in history because he was not one unique, biological, historical person.

    Judith
    I have to say this: To me and to endless numbers of believers throughout history Jesus is indeed one unique, biological, historical person. He rings true to us. He is our guide.

    Steefen
    To you and to endless numbers of believers throughout history, there is cognitive dissonance that comes with the claim Jesus is “indeed” one unique biological person whose biological mother did not receive the biological seed of a man.