Any christians here?

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    Nov 10, 2007 10:00 PM GMT
    If I've learned anything about zealots over the years, it's that trying to engage them in critical thinking and fact-based logic, is not possible. That is, after all, what led them to the false belief system, in the first place.

    I.e., it's a lost cause trying to get people with false belief systems to engage in critical thinking along empirical evidence. By definition, the belief systems are false, as was pointed out in a prior post: they are based on "faith" and not "fact". Fortunately, we don't use that faulty process in many other parts of our lives.

    What makes it so dangerous / scary / something that has to be dealt with, is that places like the Middle East have these nuts in control of nuclear arsenals. When you take weak-minded zealots, and give them a nuclear weapon, then, it is, very much indeed, time to be afraid, because these folks don't have critical thinking skills, as is demonstrated by the their zealousy in a false belief system. That makes them EXTREMELY dangerous.

    Teaching critical thinking skills at an early age is essential to overcoming the grip that these false systems have on young people and beyond. 9/11 happens because of that very reason. The brainwashing starts early, and it's important, to all of our safety that young people be taught to think in a way that allows them to walk away from these very dangerous beliefs.

    Whether it's running planes into the WTC; hatred towards others; intolerance; brainwashing; stoning; chopping the heads off of folks who say the world is reasonably round, these false belief systems represent a clear, present, and ongoing, danger, to modern society. The guys that drove into WTC believed these false belief systems; the folks who do mass suicides; rally against birth control, and so on.

    The cure is teaching folks, at a very young age, how to separate fact from fiction, and the ability to just say no to the brainwashing.

    If we fail, the very existence of the human race could be in jeopardy. I think it's very, very, very, scary, that people with stone-age belief systems (or even earlier) have nukes. This is very much a clear, and present, danger to all mankind.
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    Nov 10, 2007 11:34 PM GMT
    Satyricon,

    good sir, you are a pleasure to interact with. So don't, by any means, think that I would like to be removed from your hotlist ;)

    Your points are very excellent, and I should not have used to word "attacked" simply because it could have been assumed that I meant he was rabidly opposed to it.

    I guess my problem is the semantics of ALL of it. A real empiricist is skeptical to the point of needing to experience all things. Scientists are a mix between empiricists and rationalists. Also, I think people are assuming that I am some theistic evangelical because I call truth and beauty and things that bind us and free us from our existential crisis aspects of god. I'm just thoroughly uncomfortable with people saying God does not exist. My boyfriend, an atheist, says he is agnostic about god, unicorns and leprechauns ;) Adorable.

    I think you eloquently stated how science works, and I thank you for that. And sadly, I do hold the atheists to a little higher standard. I know if I was testing a chemical on a mouse and saw a negative effect on the mouse, I could not say that it would do the same to humans. I would have to be thoroughly careful of my assertions or else I'd be blackballed as a scientist. But the problem is that man thinks that scientific data proves that, as you said, nature is self contained. It is this inductive leap that I think is dubious at best. I just don't think that it is a reasonable leap.

    Thank you a lot for great interaction on here. I really appreciate it. I tend to just have to repeat things for those who made my argument into a straw man that I said science is faith...I definitely don't think I said that. And if I did, it's nothing I believe so it was a typo.

    Can we also not forget the zealots of social darwinism. Something thoroughly feared by social progressives, not evangelicals. The horrors of eugenics and forced sterilizations were based on the zealotry of social darwinists. Science is not free from personality kinks, so don't try and pretend it doesn't lead to dangerous value judgments. thx
  • Squarejaw

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    Nov 10, 2007 11:43 PM GMT
    sickofthesame, I wasn't saying that you believe science is faith. I was referring to ebl333's comments in that vein.
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    Nov 10, 2007 11:59 PM GMT
    Trance: "Science gives us answers but always leaves room for improvement, while religion gives us answers that stay the same through time, requiring people to try and alter the words rather than use sound evidence."


    Trance
    First of all, let me make a distinction that is important: "religious" Christianity and spiritual Christianity are very, very different, like night and day different.

    Spiritual truth does not change since by definition truth is singular and exclusive; truth cannot be amended without the obvious realization that it was not the truth to begin with. Truth never changes; it's always the same.

    Spiritual truth is not at all about facts and natural phenomenon collected by the mind through natural faculties and cataloged as to what has been perceived, tested, observed, examined and verified to qualify as factual (truth). This defines truth palpable to the intellect, but not spiritual truth.

    Spiritual truth is not about facts; it is about the identity of God, the heart of God. He is truth. We can not know God by knowing facts about God; no more than we can know a person's heart by knowing many "things" about them, but never meeting them.

    The scripture in the Bible provides facts about God. These facts are interpreted by men's minds and expressed in a myriad of doctrinal truth, most of it conflicting as evidenced by the denominational circus. The Bible itself is not the end of truth, but only the beginning.

    Born-again Christians are just that: new creatures in Christ equipped with spiritual faculties that enable them to enter into a spiritual relationship with God as spiritual "infants". The immaturity of Christians is responsible for the mess called "religion". These are those (it was also my experience as a young Christian) who have yet to come to know the heart of God in Christ, but still only know God according to the facts they understand or memorized - the basis of that knowledge is always "good and evil", "right and wrong", etc. It is the basis for judgement after who they imagine God to be in light of the facts they know about him. Yes, this often breeds fanaticism because they adhere to religious ideas that can be quite absurd, often running counter to the very scripture to which they swear their allegiance.

    So while it is true that spiritual truth "stays the same" (after all that is what truth is about), "religion" can only offer mindly interpretation of what the answers are because in lacking a personal relationship with God in Christ, they do not know spiritual truth. They are not coming to know the heart of God (only speculative doctrine about Him based on the facts they know from scripture). It's not that they alter the "words" Trance, they simply justify an interpretation of those words to agree with their mindly assumptions about God.

    Spiritual truth is progressive because it is organic. In other words, in true Christianity, the heart is changed into the very likeness of God's heart. This is the fullness of spiritual truth - being conformed to the image and likeness of God's heart. It has been God's intent from the beginning.

    So the process of growing into spiritual truth is, of course, similar to the "type and shadow" found in natural truth. The exception is that in natural truth, there is a progressive revelation to the mind of truths about things earthy, while in spiritual truth, there is a progressive revelation of God to man's heart that is progressive and which fashions man after the heart of God.

    I know what is most often seen today in Christianity resembles little the heart of God, but God's work is not yet completed. The world stage is being set for some significant changes, not only for the world, but for Christianity as well. God has always had a purpose and a plan.
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    Nov 11, 2007 12:02 AM GMT
    and I was referring to trance ;) when will the confusion end!!!!!

    I do want to say that i this has been/is a pleasure, just because I know a lot of people get heated and angry when discussing religion.
  • Squarejaw

    Posts: 1035

    Nov 11, 2007 12:04 AM GMT
    Here we are trying to solve the great mysteries of the universe and we can't even figure out who's talking to whom!
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    Nov 11, 2007 12:22 AM GMT
    I should probably start with a sorry myself. This is one subject I enjoy talking about and can get over zealous abit icon_redface.gif

    I guess I would say I honestly do have a negative view on anyone with religious beliefs. many people trying to argue for the supernatural, that "unknown" out there ideal that we can't touch or measure. I guess I have a problem putting support in an idea we can never measure.

    The ultimate answer is a god exists or doesn't exist. The problem is we can prove individual gods false or illogical but we can never solve the "spiritual" type of god. I like to refer to that as the Disney god since its those movies that do it up best portraying spirits or trees and humans without touching on any religious dogma.


    One of the basic arguements I like to point out is the simple to complex one:

    Everything we know in the world went on a stage from simple to complex in terms of evolution and developement. Life itself can come from just dust. Life doesn't need god to evolve so why bring in the god idea. Adding religion just adds more complexity and an ideal we can't test.

    Science really is the simple answer to everything, and simple answers are the best ones, especially when we can prove them. God is a complex answer that is only defined by a persons personal feelings on god.

    Science give us answers, religion gives us answers, but with conflict.

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    Nov 11, 2007 12:47 AM GMT
    sickothesame – Well, it seems we do have some semantic differences, which now that we know them are unimportant. I was just trying to defend myself from the claim that atheism was anti-empirical, but since even scientists fail this “real” empirical definition, I’m fine with it. I would note, the term “empiricism” is not usually formulated so strongly, but like I said that’s not important.

    I obviously strongly disagree with you regarding the plausibility of the self-contained theory, and I don’t think it’s a “leap” any more than any other inductive step. But I suspect that’s an irreconcilable difference, so I’ll leave it to the reader =)
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    Nov 11, 2007 12:58 AM GMT
    as long as we know we are all going to hell, I think we can all be friends.

    ;)

    I wish we all lived closer and could sit at a coffee house and talk about this all and then have a fist fight outside (although we probably would never get to that point, I just think we need a fightclub-esque moment).

    Occam's razor does work. But it's kind of boring. And the razor has not worked before.

    Thanks for the saturday afternoon fun.
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    Nov 11, 2007 12:59 AM GMT
    oh, of course, i don't believe in hell, just in case my sarcasm was difficult to see on teh internets.
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    Nov 11, 2007 2:31 AM GMT
    Trance -
    I can relate; it's also a topic I really enjoy talking about - probably on the other side of the spectrum, but passion speaks of genuineness and I respect that in you.

    I can understand why you might have a negative view of "religious beliefs". The truth is religious beliefs do not alway rightly reflect truth. Many religious beliefs are merely individual interpretations of factual scripture, not truly representative of spiritual truth as the revelation of the heart of God. Religious beliefs are often not caring and edifying, but judgemental and destructive in people's lives. After a while, who wouldn't develop a negative view of such hypocrisey. I'm a Christian, and I have that same negative view of religious Christians.

    But my Christian experience is not one which has its life in "religious" doctrine founded on a system of beliefs based on a knowledge of "good and evil" do's and don'ts. I define "religion" as the natural mind's understanding of spiritual truth. This is not only true of religious Christianity, but of every other "religion". The common thread is the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is the basis of most of the destructive behavior common to man. Every person's standard of what is good or what is evil is as varied as there are nations and cultures and religions. I think the biggest evil is not "evil", but that which religious people perceive as being "good". It's incredible what religious people can do to others when they think their position is right and good and just in the eyes of God. It often unleashes horrific evil, great pain and suffering for others. All, I might add, in the name of God which is the greatest evil since it is a false testimony of God's heart and turns many away from God.

    I know that God cannot be proven to the natural mind. He has determined it to be so. The mind is unable to comprehend God. God can only be comprehended by the heart of man. I disagree with you that one cannot know there is a God. Many genuine Christians like myself experience God as more real than what can be seen with the natural eyes. But, can I prove it to you? No, I can't. But you have absolute access to God to find out for yourself if you genuinely seek Him. I'm not trying to persuade you to do so, I'm just saying that every man has equal access to God. It is both an immediate awareness by the revelation of God's Spirit to the heart as well as an ongoing revelation that results in spiritual growth. But to dismiss God just because you haven't experienced what others have experienced of God's reality, and He is unknown to you, is really kind of presumptuous. :-)

    There just may be some truth to your "Disney god" as a shadow cast by the Real Thing to give hope for the ideal that each man wants to be true in his heart. It's how we were created by God. Nothing else can truly fulfill us but Himself.

    "Science give us answers, religion gives us answers, but with conflict." Your quote

    Conflict is not aways a bad thing. Many wonderful things come out of conflict. Sometimes, the conflict we endure is worth the prize. God is worthy of the conflict Trance.

    Thanks for your honesty,
    John
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    Nov 18, 2007 6:03 AM GMT
    Squarejaw
    Since you brought up the example of bread, then let’s examine that theory. I agree that induction of past experiences determine our next decision. The example describes the “mid” process. But my question is, what’s the 1st time decision based on? Life is full of 1st times. Even scientific finding started with a believe that there is an answer to be found, and believe that induction should be the method, and believe that the answer is suffice.

    Scientific finding requires induction, but our everyday decision doesn’t always base on science. We take risk, we prefer excitement, we sacrifice without gain, we experiment for entertainment. Life base on science is predictable and boring. It’s the life outside of science that makes it living. The reason for laughing, situation that cause emotion, determination for a cause, to indulge or sacrifice….. Our survival has a lot of science involved, but the quality of life is very much outside the science. Science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge. Yet many here suggest it provides a “way of life” as a religion is like saying quality for your life is no difference to someone on life support system.
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    Dec 07, 2007 5:11 AM GMT
    I gotta be honest... I didn't read all the posts on here, but just wanted to respond to your original post.

    You said,
    What is your attitude toward Bible; "word for word", "pick and choose" or , "what is bible" ... I have a hard time dealing with my own faith and being gay, i'm sure there must be people like me. so i'd like to heard your view on this."

    I'm a Christian as well... a pretty conservative Christian (southern Baptist). I've actually met a lot of other guys like me on here so we aren't as much a minority as we think... we just keep our mouths shut because if we know we'll be rejected by the gay community for being Christian and we'll be rejected by the Christian community for being gay.

    Anyway, I've had this topic bookmarked for a while, wanting to respond to it. I believe that the Bible is God's Word. I'm a fundamentalist actually, so I believe it literally (yep, even the Creation, Flood, etc...) I don't think you can pick and choose. If God is God and He gave us a Book to get to know Him, He can make sure that people don't muck it up with mistakes and errors. So do I believe homosexuality is wrong? I believe it's clear in the Bible that sex between men is sin... but so is any kind of lust outside of marriage. I think jerking off is a sin because it's lust. Do I still do it? Yes... Does that make me a hypocrite? Yes... I admit that. I'm not proud of it, but it makes me mad that everyone expects Christians to be these perfect people who never sin and when we sin we are called hypocrites. The reason we are Christians is because we KNOW we are sinners... we need a Savior. That's why we came to Christ in the first place.

    So has He done anything for me if I'm still struggling with sin and lust? Yes!! When I'm walking with him in a close relationship, praying and reading my Bible, sin looses it's grip on me. I live a godly life... I've been there and to be honest, I was happier when I was obeying God. But when I stop hanging out with Jesus (like currently in my life I've neglected my prayer and Bible times) then I fall back into my old ways. God gives us a choice. He's not going to force us to obey him. I can choose to sin.

    People ask, "If God is good why is there so much evil in the world?" It's because God gives us a choice. You can't have it both ways. Either you have the freedom to choose and accept the evil that comes along with it, or God forces you to do things His way and you have the perfect world with no problems (but then there's no opportunity for a love relationship between man and God because love demands a choice... it can't be forced).

    I just want to say this too... I apologize for the way many Christians act towards gay people. It's wrong and it's hurtful. All Christians sin... all Christians have problems with lust... gay lust is no different in God's eyes than straight lust or even food lust (tons of Christians have that problem as well). Christ never told us to condemn the world... he told us to love the world. But we also can't just say, "It's OK to sin." That's not the truth. Christians are perceived as hypocrites because they say sin is wrong... and then they sin themselves. But what non Christians fail to understand is that we actually say sin is wrong in our own lives as well. Just like I've tried to do in this post. I sin... and I know it's wrong. If you sin I'm not going to say it's right. I'm going to say we're both wrong. We both need a Savior. Christ took our wrongs on himself though and was punished by God for our sins when he died on the cross. That's the only reason we say we are going to heaven. We don't believe we are going to heaven because we are better than other people. Not at all. Paul in the Bible even said he was the worst of all sinners. We just trust what God says when he says Christ's death is enough to pay the penalty for our crimes against Him. And ONLY because of that can we enter His holy place.

    I could write more, but I think this is probably long enough (too long maybe). If you disagree with me, that's fine. God gives us all a choice and I respect your right to choose what you want to believe... just respect my rights as well. Thanks ebl333 for posting this topic and sharing your struggles. I'm right there struggling with you!

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    Dec 07, 2007 7:37 AM GMT
    Rarely does one find such a damagingly privative word with such overwhelmingly positive connotations, as faith. All hands point to religious propaganda.

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    Feb 23, 2008 2:38 AM GMT
    As a former -- put that in caps, FORMER -- Baptist, having dispensed with religion many years ago -- I don't understand why the Bible insists that faith is the ultimate virtue. After all, it has to be, according to fundamentalist Christians -- it's what gets you into heaven (faith in Jesus Christ).

    Notwithstanding that I question whether it's a virtue at all, particularly the "blind faith" the Bible espouses -- but more important than Love? Charity? Kindness? Intellectual Curiosity? A thousand others?

    Really?

    Of course, the real reason that religion edifies faith is that it's the one thing that keeps people from questioning their beliefs.

    Every single discussion I've had with born-again Christians -- whether it's about the literal truth of the Bible, evolution vs creationism, the concept of eternal salvation, the existence of hell -- every single discussion -- culminates in an admission that facts, evidence, scientific findings, logic, or common sense don't really matter -- that it's all a question of faith, "either you believe or you don't," and that's that.

    This kind of faith is, ultimately, fear-based -- our fear of death, mostly. Accept the fairy tale, and you'll go to heaven. These notions may comfort us at times, but it's a delusion, and IMO, a tragedy.








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    Feb 28, 2008 2:42 PM GMT
    LittleDudeWithMusclesEvery single discussion I've had with born-again Christians -- whether it's about the literal truth of the Bible, evolution vs creationism, the concept of eternal salvation, the existence of hell -- every single discussion -- culminates in an admission that facts, evidence, scientific findings, logic, or common sense don't really matter -- that it's all a question of faith, "either you believe or you don't," and that's that.

    This kind of faith is, ultimately, fear-based -- our fear of death, mostly. Accept the fairy tale, and you'll go to heaven. These notions may comfort us at times, but it's a delusion, and IMO, a tragedy.


    You posed some very important points. I too believe such fear-based faith is really a tragedy. Thanks for sharing. I'd like to share a bit too if I may...

    Thus far, it's incredibly unfortunate that the churches have done a very poor job at educating Christians to think rationally and also to articulate the beliefs clearly and logically. It does take a certain level of skill to understand how to articulate one's faith. It does take study, time, and effort. Few are willing, or have that luxury to do so.

    This failure of Christians to understand their faith well and to articulate how it relates the world in relevant and significant ways has led to so many misunderstandings over the centuries. It's resulted in vocal fundamentalists who seem to have no sensitivity for those around them. It's also sad that this perpetual lack of personal study has propagated the virtual "dumbing down" of the faith, its message and its relevance, such that people ultimately abandon the faith for something else, or even nothing to believe in. That, to me, is the real tragedy.

    However, I have to disagree with the comments that the Christian faith is intrinsically fear-based. Yes, there are elements to that end, but it is not characteristic of the life and person of Jesus Christ.

    The faith seems fear-based for those who don't really understand the breadth and depth of the love of God and how to best convey it. It is also unfortunate that some Christian communities use fear as a motivator rather than love. And yet, even this is quite revealing of ourselves because it is our human nature to be driven by fear. We take care of ourselves because we fear decay. We seek out relationships because we fear being alone. Of course, that is not the primary reason, but fear does play a huge part in our lives.

    But at the heart of the Christian gospel, the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, was never one of fear but of life, hope, peace and joy (but not without the suffering, pain, ridicule and pain as well). If anything, the reality of the Gospel affirms the darkness and difficulties of the human experience, but in all that muck and mess, we CAN find goodness, love, grace, forgiveness, peace, etc -- in fact, God meets us there. The good news is that God lives and dwells in and once dwelt among us. We are not alone. And we will never be alone. Unless we want to be alone. Death, then, becomes the finality of our choice.

    Faith in God is not opposed to reason. In fact, reason makes us honest about our faith. Reason makes faith possible. Reason takes us the precipice of understanding the world, God, ourselves and others, and sets us up to LEAP forward toward God in faith. Faith always has an object -- namely, God, and for the Christian... Jesus. Without an object.. it's not faith. It's only wishful thinking.

    This is where our culture gets all confused and collapses the ideas. Wishful thinking is not faith. Faith is quite a different matter. It has a clear object, grounded in trust and rationality, in knowing and relating to the object of our belief. It is also very active, not passive.

    Thus, Christianity is not opposed to reason. In fact, it would behoove the Christian to investigate the faith and hold it up to critical and rational scrutiny. One will only be humbled by the depth and awe of not only the answers it provides, but the limitations of our human experience.

    Christian systematic theology, if one has ever sought to study it, is very philosophical and rational. In fact, one might say, of all the religions in the world, Christianity may be the most rational of them all, offering a measure of coherence that is not found in any other religion. Theological academia is not for the light-hearted. Yet few understand or have even ventured in that direction and have made comments not understanding the whole scope of things.

    I recognize that "popular" Christianity, the superficial and commercialized version of it, has been "marketed" to the masses, and that is perhaps how most people recognize Christianity. THAT to me is the most unfortunate. In my opinion, this misrepresentation has caused many to turn from something that is potentially one of the most intellectually stimulating, spiritually fulfilling, and emotional moving and memorable adventures with God one could ever experience. To know and be known. And this is coming from a gay Christian man, who once considered leaving the faith because of the seeming irreconcilability but has since found solace again in Jesus.

    If one would like to begin to question the faith honestly and rationally, one good place to start would be an Indian(-Canadian/American?) Christian by the name of Ravi Zacharias. Listen to his free podcasts. People grill him from all over the world about Christianity, all in the hopes for some balance of rationality to this thing we call faith. He offers some good insight. http://rzim.org/radio/archives.php?p=JT&v=current
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    Feb 28, 2008 2:48 PM GMT
    Well i am Spiritual edging towards wiccan i guess!


    As we have said before in a Post That book has been written by man and changed to suit the Times over and over again but the basic 10 commandments are ok i guess?

    l don't believe everything that is written because all is written by Man or Woman as the case may be?



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    Feb 28, 2008 5:34 PM GMT
    [quote][cite]AznAmerGuy said[/cite][quote]
    I recognize that "popular" Christianity, the superficial and commercialized version of it, has been "marketed" to the masses, and that is perhaps how most people recognize Christianity. THAT to me is the most unfortunate. In my opinion, this misrepresentation has caused many to turn from something that is potentially one of the most intellectually stimulating, spiritually fulfilling, and emotional moving and memorable adventures with God one could ever experience. To know and be known. And this is coming from a gay Christian man, who once considered leaving the faith because of the seeming irreconcilability but has since found solace again in Jesus.


    You're response was outstanding. I think you really hit the nail on the head. This portion of your response really rings home true. It is unfortunate that the vocal Christians fall into this category leaving the true Christian faith misunderstood. We as Christians do a very poor job of learning about our own faith and teaching others.

    Thanks for sharing this.

    Peace.
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    Feb 28, 2008 6:04 PM GMT
    I'm religion nonspecific. I choose not to assign or 'limit' myself by the barriers of a religion or single spiritual doctrine will give me. Though, in my own way, I've intergrated the fundamental principles of a lot of religious and spiritual systems. My own path is unique to me. There's a bit of mysticism in my beliefs, but no polytheism or idol worship. In a couple ways you can say I'm sort of Christian, but just as much as I'm Jewish or Muslim.

    I'm just going to stop there. Explaining myself would take far too long.

    But, I dated guys who concidered themselves Christians. It was interesting, though redundant.
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    Mar 19, 2008 12:43 PM GMT
    I'm a very conservative Christian. I see no problem with being gay and a Christian and neitehr do my conservative Christian parents. I was raised in the church throughout my life and in a Christian school in South Carolina and I see no problems with it. The verses that are sometimes referred to are always referring to prostitution, lustfull relationships, or to straight people that are giving up what is natural and persuing gay relationships, which was much more common in Roman and Greek times when people were pressured TO be gay insteand of straight because of a totally different perspective on what was masculine and what was not. There is a great book on all of this by John Boswell called, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality. It's extremely well written and well researched. It traces attitudes towards gays from the greek city states all the way through to about the 1400s when the Inquisition began. I think you'd be surprised that the church was pretty accepting of homosexuality for about the first 1300 years of its history. So it's not ME that's misreading these verses. The vast majority of church history, and all of the Biblical text supports my position. These so called conservatives in the church are bending scripture and distorting it, and they will have to give an accounting to God for comitting these grievous acts.
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    Mar 19, 2008 3:57 PM GMT
    A good and interesting summary "findout". Although I consider myself agnostic, my partner is christian (practicing Catholic) it is a great comfort to him. Like you he does not believe Jesus Christ would hate gays, and that a loving God would create gays then hate them.
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    Mar 19, 2008 4:12 PM GMT
    jbedwards saidA good and interesting summary "findout". Although I consider myself agnostic, my partner is christian (practicing Catholic) it is a great comfort to him. Like you he does not believe Jesus Christ would hate gays, and that a loving God would create gays then hate them.


    Well, this is the 64 thousand dollar question! And certainly the one that gay Christians struggle with the most. How can a loving god create someone who is gay and then, by His Word, tell him not to act it out?

    I just went out with a guy who is really struggling with this and in fact, had indicated that even though we had a great time and it was great to date another Christian, we can only be friends until he settles this question. His thought is that God did create him gay but his actions are of his own and not Gods. To be obedient to God would be to put aside his human desires and follow scripture (as interpreted) and basically be celibate. You can not love God and practice homosexuality. One has to die in order for the other to be absolute.

    As a Christian, I fully understand his struggle with this but as a human, I just don't think I could ever be happy feeling trapped, even if it were knowing that I was serving God the way He wanted me to. I guess that's the sinful Adam in me! Thank God for forgiveness, I know I'll need all I can get. I can only hope that He makes room for me at the foot of that cross! -- Peace.
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    Mar 19, 2008 4:16 PM GMT
    I believe that God made me the way I am. Brown hair, 6'2", gay etc. The Bible states that God is perfect. Therefore he does NOT make mistakes. I do believe that the Bible is open for interpretation. It has to be. Man has interpreted it for generations considering how many times it's been translated. And translations are often little more than "interpreting what someone else means in their own language."

    There is a verse in in the Old Testament that states man should not lay as with a woman. Personally, I believe this was for the purposes of populating the earth. Let's face it, men don't have all the parts necessary to birth a child. icon_wink.gif But the New Testament also states that Jesus came to do away with The Law (the Old Testament).

    Someone else also mentioned this, but it was last year sometime, so it bears repeating. A lot of "Christians" like to throw the passage from Romans around. It talks about how God gave "them" over to their lustful natures. What people don't seem to want to understand is that "them" were people who were godless and were worshiping idols. I am not Godless. God is very much a part of my life.
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    Mar 19, 2008 4:31 PM GMT
    awol77, you're absolutely correct in my opinion. Many select parts of scripture without regard to the context of the verse nor the state of the society of that time. Although there are as many, I suspect, that will say that it's more literal interpretation is what is important. Again, both sides of the fence, leaving it all for interpretation. I feel more like you in that I am God's creation and He does not make mistakes (well, maybe except the avocado... way to big of pit in that one!) LOL

    I do think that it's important to re-evaluate our feelings regularly to ensure that we aren't humanizing our belief for the purpose of fulfilling our own desires. This is the part that I find the biggest struggle. Trying to separate what I believe from what God wants of me. So I continue to be in the Word, with prayer and faith and fall on my knees very regularly (and I'm not referring to the absolute human desire of being on my knees. I know someone would pick up on that line in a heart beat!! LOL)
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    Mar 19, 2008 5:03 PM GMT
    ebl333 saidHardly anyone post here. so here i go..

    for those of you who consider yourself christian, the questions is

    What is your attitude toward Bible; "word for word", "pick and choose" or , "what is bible"

    I have a hard time dealing with my own faith and being gay, i'm sure there must be people like me. so i'd like to heard your view on this. And please, dont' give me that being good and do good things is all there is as christian. i'd change to buddhism and set myself free from this struggle. I"m christian not because of tradition, things i did when i was young, or what i brought up to be. I am because i choose to be and that i see truth in it. yet the bible bothers me. that's all


    I am Christian, but don't subscribe to any organized church. I think the Old Testament is a nice read. My faith is rooted in the Gospels of the New Testament, that preach a God of love, and if you believe Jesus us the Savior, and all sins are forgiven through him, no one goes to hell.

    I also believe in Revelations, not as a literal accounting of the end of the world, but as John's eyes were best ale to describe it.

    I pray and read scripture in solitude, where I feel I have a spiritual connection to God.