Shocking video expose... dose of reality!

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    Nov 03, 2007 9:10 PM GMT
    Nope. You'll have to train your brain to ignore them.
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    Nov 03, 2007 9:12 PM GMT
    Or post threads with a different perspective.
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    Nov 03, 2007 9:12 PM GMT
    Hippie, I think the reason why many people (including me) find these threads annoying is that you are creating multiple threads to discuss the same topic. It'd be like if I started one thread called, "Boxers or briefs, which is better?" and then started another thread called, "Are boxer/brief ratios the same abroad as in the US?" and then another thread called, "Statistical evidence that men more often wear boxers than briefs." It's essentially all the same conversation - and, worse yet, it is obviously a polarizing divisive topic that results in needless bickering every single time. And it makes you seem like you do in fact have an aggressive agenda on the forums rather than a simple desire for easygoing conversation. Can't you just stick with one thread?

    hippie It got really boring and I wasn't looking to engage in debate, but more so intelligent discourse.


    It seems your defintion of intelligent discourse is people agreeing with you which really isn't fair. If you're not looking for debate, why do you respond to the detractors every single time? And why do you open numerous threads about the same topic that always ends in debates?
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    Nov 03, 2007 9:53 PM GMT
    Amen, inner. I myself have been wishing we could have just one meta thread called "Been there done that" where the same people can go on and on about meat, circumcision, open relationships, bisexuality, and lest I forget, the all important boxers or briefs thread you mentioned. icon_evil.gif
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    Nov 03, 2007 9:55 PM GMT
    Ack - and how could I forget the all important closeted/headless torso thread! Throw that one in there too!
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:03 PM GMT
    18H00: Supper time – finally!
    855686.JPG

    And, ACK! , Giggs, lets not overlook the What's on your Grocery List? and the Best Sources of Protein? threads.
    HA! I just answered both of 'em! Argh.
    thumbs-up.jpgnapkin01.jpgBon App!
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:07 PM GMT
    pig trotters ...oh boy! ... icon_biggrin.gif

    good with a bowl of tripe...

    tripebowl.jpg
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:07 PM GMT
    A fascinating thread. I'll offer some of my experience and opinion, but this is all my own. I'm not casting aspersions here on anyone whose opinion or practice differs from my own.

    I was vegetarian for 9 years, vegan for 1 of those years. I wrote about Erik Marcus's book, Vegan: The New Ethics of Eating, and ended up having lunch with him to discuss ways I could help promote veganism as a valid and ethical diet.

    I thought a lot about it while I was doing it.

    One year ago I stopped being vegetarian. A few of my friends who had been veg for a long time had quit and I noticed myself really angered by their decisions, and when I thought about it I realized that a lot of my continued vegetarianism was based in a kind of self-brainwashing and peer pressure: I was in a community that supported my diet, and I routinely "talked myself into" it -- watched videos like this one, read books about it, and generally went to lengths not to question my own beliefs, but reinforce them.

    As evidence of this, when I began eating meat, it didn't make me actually physically ill, but it was very upsetting to me -- I had cultivated an aversion and it took serious work to eat meat again without fear (in form of revulsion.)

    Other than the realization that I was just acting out of conditioned habit and not a real ethical choice anymore, I also decided to start eating meat again because, ethically speaking, I decided I was thinking about it wrong.

    That is, a lot of vegetarians and vegans have fundamental problems with killing "sentient beings" for food. I realized that I think this is incorrect. The real crime is disrespect. Disrespect manifests most often as neglect and waste.

    The idea that killing animals is wrong but that killing plants for food is fine is predicated on this idea of empathy between the species. I think of it as somewhat akin to people who think they really understand the deep motivations behind the behavior of their pets. A lot of this is just projection -- speculate on a pattern, see some evidence, and assume it fits.

    We have no assurance that other animals experience pain the same way that we do, or that they experience anything like we do. Nor that a central nervous system means that its suffering is more like ours and therefore more significant. Lobster, as one confusing example, lacks a central nervous system, and is a bunch of disconnected nerve bundles. Is it "cruel" to steam lobsters alive? It's really hard to say.

    And if you think so, then how can you say it's *not* cruel to kill plants? They react in obvious chemical ways to wounds; it's very clear they're not oblivious to the damage. Does it really just come down to whether or not the food has a face? That seems silly to me.

    I read something that I found very moving in the French Laundry Cookbook, penned by Michael Ruhlman but the story comes from the renowned chef/owner Thomas Keller. It concerned his early years cooking at a restaurant where he had a very limited budget for entrees. To try to achieve the highest quality, he kept looking for ways to make things better and fresher without increasing cost. Finally, he asked the butcher if he could bring the rabbits to the restaurant still living and butcher them there.

    "Sure," the butcher said, and then showed up with 11 live, adorable rabbits. He butchered one in front of Keller, too quickly for the chef to really see what he'd done, and then left.

    Keller did kill the rabbits -- he had only a few hours until service, and did need to serve the entree -- but said the experience was harrowing, deeply traumatizing.

    But, he said, the experience taught him a lot about respect for life. He cooked that rabbit more carefully and respectfully than he'd ever cooked anything in his life. And, he wondered, for every chef that overcooked a rabbit flank and threw it away, if that chef had butchered the rabbit himself, would he have neglected it? Certainly not.

    Waste, then, is the real crime, because it is so disrespectful. Everything dies so that others may live -- whether it is plant or animal -- and to waste it is to show immense disrespect for that.

    When I was vegan, I'd routinely buy ingredients and put them in my fridge and forget about them and have them wilt or spoil and throw them away. I could certainly afford it, financially, and would always kind of wince a little but thought little of it.

    I now see that behavior as far more deeply unethical than my current practice, of trying to buy high-quality humanely-raised meat and vegetables and make careful use of each and every one, and to improve my cooking skills relentlessly so that I may never ruin any ingredients with poor preparation. In the case that I cook something poorly, I take it as an imperative to learn as much as I can from the experience -- in which case it is not a waste.

    This approach is shared by a number of chefs I respect very deeply, notably Keller and also Chris Cosentino, who has some fame lately for being on one of those cooking TV shows, but ordinarily is head chef at Incanto in San Francisco, and runs the website www.offalgood.com, about cooking techniques for using the offal and other non-muscle parts of animals. Cock's comb in dessert. Pigs' ears in stew. That kind of thing. That dedication to maximizing the utility of all the animal is the same, I think.

    I would ask a vegan: when you cook beets, do you throw out the greens? Do you ever let things spoil in your fridge?

    I now choose to see those actions in myself (again, my opinion, my choice, only about me, not proselytizing) as a fundamental waste of life. In _The Soul of a Chef_, Ruhlman expounds on that precept: it is a waste not only of the life of that vegetable, but of the life of the farmer, the time he or she spent tending to those rows of vegetables. It is a waste of the life of the guy who drove the freight truck to the grocery store, a waste of the life of the stocker in the grocery store, and, finally, a waste of my own life in the time I spent buying that food and then throwing it away.

    And yes, respect also involves kindness. Raise animals kindly. I try now to buy most of my meat from the most humane sources I can find so that I believe the animals have lived lives with as little pain as possible. But there are misconceptions here, too. Foie gras ducks on good foie gras farms do not suffer pain. A friend of mine lived on a foie farm in France and said that she watched the farmer feed the geese the corn in their last month of life, holding the funnel to their beaks, and that it was more like an orgy than torture, the geese gluttonously consuming the corn with relish. It's not healthy, certainly, but they did not experience pain. And yet here in Austin, animal activists spray-paint "FUCK GRAS" on restaurants that serve it.

    As a final note, I began eating meat again also because I decided that I was unlikely to effect positive change as a vegetarian or vegan. Maybe a few people would see my example and change their minds. But I would never convince industrial slaughterhouses and ranches to change their practices. As a thoughtful consumer of meat, I can vote with my dollar. If people begin to buy organic and humane meats in more volume, naturally the meat industry will notice and change. Vegetarianism and veganism, in my opinion, stand little chance of making a similar dent. The meat industry would have to notice a huge decline in meat purchases and then decide -- to what? To stop operations entirely and use those fields to grow soybeans? The more I thought about it, the more I felt that my choice of vegetarian diet was one of pure, selfish idealism over effective pragmatism, and I didn't like the idea that I would do something just to feel superior to others. (I still do it plenty. But I try to pay attention and do it less where I see it.)

    Anyway, that's my two cents (more like two dollars -- that ended up being pretty long.)
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:17 PM GMT
    the ancient practice of going to the temple to butcher animals was partly because people realized they were killing a living, feeling being, so they did it before god.

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    Nov 03, 2007 10:18 PM GMT
    that was probably the best post on the entire damn thread. congrats to atx climber.
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:23 PM GMT
    Great Post ATXclimber. Well written and thoughtful.
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:35 PM GMT
    Nice, ATX!
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:39 PM GMT
    I think it's only fair that I continue eating animals while they keep eating eachother. When they stop I'll stop too ;) When they start killing eachother 'humanely' to eat eachother, I might start caring about that too. I've seen hundreds of videos like this and pamphlets and such, but in all honestly, I don't feel for animals. I'd prefer if they were treated better when possible (e.g. no unnecessary suffering) but I'll always prefer the wellbeing of humans over animals (e.g. oftentimes treating animals badly = cheaper food for humans = more poor/starving families fed). If animals want to be treated humanely they'll have to prove to me that they are capable of understanding such considerations by treating eachother that way too.. which they won't do so if they can't appreciate it why should I bother?
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    Nov 03, 2007 10:42 PM GMT
    OMG Rune! I cant believe you have no feelings for the suffering of an animal being inhumanely butchered ...the pain and terror. ... icon_eek.gif

    I am sure I have not understood your posting.
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    Nov 04, 2007 12:13 AM GMT
    Inner the reason I started other threads is because I wanted first off a different perspective, one thread started as an argument and it got annoying so I made another, the same people came and did the same thing.

    Also, if you go look at my posts you will notice I don't generally respond to people who post pictures of meat, or don't talk respectfully. They are a waste of my time. I am more than happy to discuss the topic at hand with someone respectful of my point of view regardless of whether they agree or not.
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    Nov 04, 2007 12:52 AM GMT
    ATX... brilliant post... very thoughtfully stated!

    atxclimberThat is, a lot of vegetarians and vegans have fundamental problems with killing "sentient beings" for food. I realized that I think this is incorrect. The real crime is disrespect. Disrespect manifests most often as neglect and waste.


    You are far more eloquent with words than I, ATX... but what you have said here takes me back to things I was taught as a child. When my Grandfather was teaching me about my Native heritage, he taught me to have respect for ALL living things, to only take what I needed from nature, to respect the life (of the plant, animal, whatever) that was being sacrificed (kill with compassion), to use ALL of whatever it was, and to give something back to nature. To take more than you need or to waste any of what you take is to greatly disrepect the spirit of the animal (or plant, or fish, or whatever) and that was an unspeakable thing to do... or in his words, it was "bad medicine".

    I agree completely that it would make far more sense and a much greater impact to purchase organic and/or humanely raised foods if we want to make a difference in the marketplace. The bottom line with these companies is always profit, and when profit decreases, they take notice.
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:03 AM GMT
    Plants composed of "living" cells too. Does a tomatoe plant feel it when the tomatoe is torn from its branch? Let's get real here. Jesus ate fish and the head is usually cut off when the fish is still alive. Get real!
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:17 AM GMT
    hey hippie,

    you have every right to post a topic and try to have an intelligent discussion about it. but nearly all your posts here are about how the discussion has to go a certain way, and what the arguments can be, and how the tone has to meet exactly with your specifications, and how shocked you are that people don't follow all the expectations you have for online discourse.

    you keep saying this happens to you over and over again. do you know what the definition of insanity is? it's doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results. icon_smile.gif
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:21 AM GMT
    I agree with JonnyFreestyle 100%.
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:24 AM GMT
    for ATX after his long post- kudos for taking the time and sharing your experience.

    As i've posted in previous threads I think it's time to discuss at length how we as vegitarians see it.

    I have been vegitarian for a few years. Went Vegan but I couldn't stick to the massive restrictions. I mean, honey is on the don't list and that was just to hard for me. My whole life i have been surrounded by meat eating people, friends and family. Though occasionally we would have the bold family members who would become vegitarians.

    They were people who did not sit at a table with meat and make faces or comments to the people who still enjoyed it. They would simply pass on any items not suited for them. At this time I ate meat, which, even to this day i think tastes and smells great. Not every vegitarian is repulsed by the idea of meat. It wasn't until I was in college that I met a girl who was a bit more radical in her devotion. It was then that she began showing videos and awful, scary things done by the meat industry. I was shocked and I did feel guilty about eating meat and I stopped. Then I realized during that process it wasn't guilt per say for eating the MEAT. It was guilt for the inhumane torture of these animals, a disregard for life and the environment which was directly effecting the human species as well.

    I've come to notice that because the way the media portrays radical groups that eveyone bearing that title is now under the same heading too. Also, I noticed the anger that this subject inspired from people who did eat meat. I would ask them why it makes them so angry...many, could not answer me. It came to me that people who ate meat and those who didn't differed in self reflection and understanding. Becoming something that isn't what we grew up with or was routine takes a lot of thought. As vegitarians, you are forced to ask yourself why. meat eaters never have too. They say things like, humans before animals...why though is that their first answer without thinking twice? I've noticed it's isolation. Because when one says they are vegitarian or vegan..they become isolated from the broader society. As humans we are always attempting to belong to something. Being a meat eater is easier in this world and more accepting by the masses because of culture.

    A lot of people compare the situation of meat to plants. How are they any different. And, in theory, they are correct...no one can know how anything truly feels or exists. Yet ask them what the difference is between humans and animals and they will have an opinion that will surely be in favor to humans. WHy people though? Because we are smart, dominating creaters of the world (many will hid behind the argument of god) and that animals are there for the eating. So here is the question...if there is no line between eating animals or plants, then there is certainly no difference between eating people and eating animals. But when confronted with this as an option, the reaction is then met with ridicule and dissaproval.

    Also, we get a lot of people saying that we evolved eating meat. I ask the question then if the cavemen went to a C town or a Super Walmart. They look at me like, what are you talking about? A lot of people seem to think that meat was in abundance to our early ancestors. But it wasn't...if anything, meat was very scarce and hard to come by...when it was found. It helped them to put a bit of fat on to keep them through the next famine. People are perplexed by that. Then I tell them that now, yearly people consume about 30-40 animals on average per PERSON. 40 cows?!?! they are in utter disbelief.

    So it comes down to this really. No, there are no right or wrong answers in this situation. But there is one common thing that people can agree upon (though there are exceptions) is that animal cruelty is present and awful. Yes, plants react biologically and grow and die. No we as veggies are not without regard to the environment..that is actually a huge part of radically not eating meat. For most, it isn't about NOT eating meat as it is a stance on hurting the companies inflicting the cruelty and the environmental damage. I do not see the majority of vegitarians trying to convince people otherwise of their eating habits, it is mainly those we see that make the news because of their radical practices.

    So no, killing and damage must happen (with meat and plants), but it cannot be ignored that there are better ways of doing things. For example...When we cut down a tree or pick a flower, we can replant both and many of us do. We understand what we take and we give back..that is a true cycle of life. What is it about factory farm that they are giving back that they take? This is not an attack about eating meat from me, it's about the process in which meat is produced and how they are giving back to the world with their processes.

    most people who eat meat just do it greedily without thinking of everything that effects the world but vegitarians seem to think about EVERY single thing that is effected by the meat industry. I've also noticed when vegitarians try to share their knowledge, they are met with people trying to say, well thats bad but this is bad too. They simply try to dissprove vegitarians at all costs when they arn't saying eating meat makes you bad...because that is how meat eaters see it as. When we are just saying, look at how the meat industry dissrespects you and the world you live in....you fight for them yet they don't care about you or the world you share.
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:33 AM GMT
    does he mean "vegetarian"? ... icon_confused.gif
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:47 AM GMT
    are you talking about me? i really didnt proof read so if anyone has questions about what I meant...let me know haha i can be pretty confusing when I write quickly!
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:49 AM GMT
    oooooooooo....my spelling....sorry lol if that was the only thing that stuck out to you.

    thanks though, cause my misspelling was obviously so far off the word was unrecognizable. Which must have thrown off the whole meaning of my post.
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:54 AM GMT
    well, it just sort of pulls the rug out from under one's thesis when one can't even spell the word after a few years of being one, doesn't it?
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    Nov 04, 2007 1:59 AM GMT
    not at all?

    you honestly think because someone can't spell something that everything they have to say is not creditable or worth hearing? In the future, i'll make sure to spell check before posting something you can see.

    I mean, there was no need for that, there wasn't. I mean, some of the greatest people in the world couldn't read or write. yet they made huge strides so you can enjoy the comforts of the world that you live in now.

    I'm sorry, but that was the most uncalled for comment i think you have ever made that I've read.

    wow. i'm sorry, im truly truly sorry that that is the only thing you have to say to all of that, truly sorry.